I had mentioned this to Mangorockfish elsewhere. I thought it might be a good idea to post here as well so more people would see it. I have found that I get great sound if I do it myself rather than letting the soundman take care of it.
The snare, tom and top head of the cocktail drum are all mic'ed with a sennheiser E604 about an inch above the head. These mics have a built in plastic clamp that holds to the rim of the drum (very convienent for us especially because most of us have few to no stands to clamp mics to). The bottom head of the cocktail drum is mic'ed with an audiotechnica pro 25 about 2 inches from where the beater hits the head.
All four mics are then mixed through a Behringer UB1202 mixing board. That particular mixing board has 4 channels with XLR inputs, cheap, small and inexpensive. I have used it for about 2 years now with no problems. I run it mono with all cheannels turned to the left (mono). I run a line out of the left main out of the small mixer to a direct box to give the signal some boost and then the direct box goes to the main sound system. That way the sound man can turn the entire set up and down volume wise, but he can't screw up the EQ you want on your drums.
The reason for using the mixer I mentioned is because it is small enough to fit into the mic case and it still has enough channels to use all the mics I need for a four piece drumset. There are a few other models out there I have seen that would work just as good or better, but I never found it neccessary to buy a better or more expensive mixer because this one has worked so well.
I find it to be a real advantage to mix and EQ the drums myself because chances are your average soundman has never mic'ed up a cocktail set. He still has the ability to turn your overall volume up and down if need be, but he can't change anything you have set at the small mixer next to you. THe drums sound how YOU want them to sound.
I started doing this a little over two years ago because the typical soundman never really made my hipgig (set I used before I got my cocktail set) sound good. Since the drums were small they always came out very tinny and thin sounding. Doing this myself allowed me to get more of the bottom end out of the toms and bass that most sound men told me simply wasn't there.
I hope this post gives you gigging cocktail drummers some help when it comes to mic'ing your drums. I have tried numerous other ways, but mic'ing the cocktail set like a sit-down drum set has proven to be easier and more consistant for me than using overheads or other methods. If anyone has any questions I'll do my best to answer them.
-Joe
Mic'ing cocktail drums for the gig
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palacki808
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Palacki808, you have some good advice if the club has a DJ or just a guy that patches you in and leaves the gig till the next band days later. But as a sound guy myself I've seen where bands attempt to do this and it absolutey works against them. Here's why. A sound guy can change the frequencies if a tom or mic starts to ring. Instead of cutting the house eq affecting everyone he can cut just the offending mic. Levels are one thing but one can not hear the changes in the night due to temp, crowd, band levels etc from the stage. I will agree that most club techs are gear freaks with no ears but you'll be missing out when you find one and you tie his hands. Help educate the tech before hand and if he's not willing to learn, send him the 1 or 2 channels. Don't forget the outboard gear a tech has is usually better than what the band has. Gating , Compression, reverb, various effects. This again can make a $5000.00 kit sound like a $25.00 garage kit in the wrong hands but in the right hands, you get the kick of god and the snare of a shotgun blast. Again an offending badly tuned tom can be gated properly with out affecting the whole band unlike if the tech get only 1 or 2 channels. There also is no way to add a hint of reverb in a dead club if you only have one channel without affecting the whole kit.
Last bit of info. If you piss off the sound tech, no matter how many channels you send he'll, she'll make you sound like crap.
Have fun and hammer hard.
Dinkus
Last bit of info. If you piss off the sound tech, no matter how many channels you send he'll, she'll make you sound like crap.
Have fun and hammer hard.
Dinkus
mic the kit
What about cymbals,bleeding through or trouble with mixing the volume[my ride/crash is right above my tom/kick drum and I have a side snare] and getting to much feedback from the drum or cymbal..anyone have that problem?I haven't played out yet but i am worried about this occuring.Am I worried for nothing?
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palacki808
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bleeding
Personally, I like a little bleed from the cymbals. In a larger bar or club a little bleed helps the cymbals carry without the need for overhead mics. If you are concerned however, raising the cymbals up a little higher will help. I have noticed that it doesn't take much to stop feedback. A few inches will do it.
-Joe
-Joe
I've been doing some mic'ing of my cocktail kit both for recording and for live. Each are very specific solutions and as such, may not be ideal in every situation.
For live I'm going minimal, primarily to project some additional attack. The music is low-volume-unplugged so I'm not going for bombastic, by any means. So, instead of using several mics covering each drum (which is a typical approach to mic?ing live drums), I'm capturing an overhead picture that covers cymbals, mounted percussion and the 4 drums (main tom, side tom, Brazilian tamborim, and popcorn snare). Contrary to a traditional kit where the drums and cymbals span a greater area and often at very different elevations and angles, many of our cocktail kits are more contained, making overhead micing possible.
I was given a set of MXL mics to use for these gigs - these are inexpensive 'project' recording condensors that I wouldn't typically use especially live, but they're working out fine. The small diaphram 993 mic, is positioned at about 8 feet high pointing down at a spot between the top head of the main drum and the side snare. Underneath the main drum at a distance of 2-3 inches from and angled toward beater, is the 992 large diapharam mic. One normally wouldn?t use such a mic for this, but it handles the SPL, and it mounted just so using a desk stand and it's shock mount. I also use a djembe next to the cocktail kit, and I use a clipon AT ATM35 condensor, which is amazing in this application.
All is submixed, minimally eq'd and sent to the FOH mix via a Mackie 1402 VLZ. I use the 75hz 'rumble' rolloff on the overhead mic channel, and keep the mic pre's gain settings a bit lower than hotter.
I've used some other mics in this similar live application, including a CAD100, Rode NT2, Rode NT4 and Shure VP88 for overhead (the NT4 and VP88 are stereo and using those are a different animal). For kick I've had very good results with a AKG D112, the above mentioned CAD100, a BLUE ball powered dynamic (no kidding), and an AT ATM25. BTW, if you do want to singly mic drums, the sennheiser e604's that Joe refers to above work very well; they sound good and are easy to mount.
Dinkus makes a good point about working with the FOH engineer ? when submixing your own kit onstage, you are essentially taking away an element of control from the house engineer, and when it comes to controlling feedback, you don?t have the benefit of the FOH perspective, nor the same abilities to remedy it (and OMG, you?re also drumming). On the flip side, us cocktail drummers have a very special sound we want to convey and with care, we can deliver that to FOH. To all of this, carefully developing your own submix with the support of the FOH engineer is an ideal situation.
For live I'm going minimal, primarily to project some additional attack. The music is low-volume-unplugged so I'm not going for bombastic, by any means. So, instead of using several mics covering each drum (which is a typical approach to mic?ing live drums), I'm capturing an overhead picture that covers cymbals, mounted percussion and the 4 drums (main tom, side tom, Brazilian tamborim, and popcorn snare). Contrary to a traditional kit where the drums and cymbals span a greater area and often at very different elevations and angles, many of our cocktail kits are more contained, making overhead micing possible.
I was given a set of MXL mics to use for these gigs - these are inexpensive 'project' recording condensors that I wouldn't typically use especially live, but they're working out fine. The small diaphram 993 mic, is positioned at about 8 feet high pointing down at a spot between the top head of the main drum and the side snare. Underneath the main drum at a distance of 2-3 inches from and angled toward beater, is the 992 large diapharam mic. One normally wouldn?t use such a mic for this, but it handles the SPL, and it mounted just so using a desk stand and it's shock mount. I also use a djembe next to the cocktail kit, and I use a clipon AT ATM35 condensor, which is amazing in this application.
All is submixed, minimally eq'd and sent to the FOH mix via a Mackie 1402 VLZ. I use the 75hz 'rumble' rolloff on the overhead mic channel, and keep the mic pre's gain settings a bit lower than hotter.
I've used some other mics in this similar live application, including a CAD100, Rode NT2, Rode NT4 and Shure VP88 for overhead (the NT4 and VP88 are stereo and using those are a different animal). For kick I've had very good results with a AKG D112, the above mentioned CAD100, a BLUE ball powered dynamic (no kidding), and an AT ATM25. BTW, if you do want to singly mic drums, the sennheiser e604's that Joe refers to above work very well; they sound good and are easy to mount.
Dinkus makes a good point about working with the FOH engineer ? when submixing your own kit onstage, you are essentially taking away an element of control from the house engineer, and when it comes to controlling feedback, you don?t have the benefit of the FOH perspective, nor the same abilities to remedy it (and OMG, you?re also drumming). On the flip side, us cocktail drummers have a very special sound we want to convey and with care, we can deliver that to FOH. To all of this, carefully developing your own submix with the support of the FOH engineer is an ideal situation.
Mics
Thanks for the info MultiPerc!
Yeah, the Front Of House thing is a subtle interpersonal issue. Everyone is different. When I tour I always defer to the house engineer. Usually they have their own kit mics and are happy to toss them over onto the Cocktail Kit. Or, if it's a smaller venue, they will just bring 2 or 3 lines to my setup and use my mics (ATM25 for Kick, SM57 or ATM35 for Snare/Top) and run it through their mixer. I've never had a problem and most engineers are excited about having something different in their day!
- John
Yeah, the Front Of House thing is a subtle interpersonal issue. Everyone is different. When I tour I always defer to the house engineer. Usually they have their own kit mics and are happy to toss them over onto the Cocktail Kit. Or, if it's a smaller venue, they will just bring 2 or 3 lines to my setup and use my mics (ATM25 for Kick, SM57 or ATM35 for Snare/Top) and run it through their mixer. I've never had a problem and most engineers are excited about having something different in their day!
- John
Subkick
Hmmm....
Interesting idea Tiki! I have never used one of these but was hanging out the other day with some gear heads who were all excited about them. I wonder how close they have to be to the source. Also, I wonder what kind of differenc it makes if your are off axis (at an angle) from the source drumhead. It looks like it is designed to react in parallel with the outside bass drum head.
Your could be on to something Watson!
- John
Interesting idea Tiki! I have never used one of these but was hanging out the other day with some gear heads who were all excited about them. I wonder how close they have to be to the source. Also, I wonder what kind of differenc it makes if your are off axis (at an angle) from the source drumhead. It looks like it is designed to react in parallel with the outside bass drum head.
Your could be on to something Watson!
- John
FWIW, I've recorded with a 10" driver outside the kick, which is essentially the application that the Yamaha subkick was modelled after (several engineers prior used Yamaha NS10 drivers this way). This technique does give a nice lowfreq boom and roundness especially if placed at a slight distance from the front head. And John's supposition is right on, the on-axis paralell positioning does give best results. Getting a good sound from the resonant head (obviously) is also important.
Now underneath a vertical big drum may be a different story - although I havent' tried it. I don't have one of these things rigged up now, but hopefully someone will try and prove this differently. The challenge is twofold: mic'ing a resonant (not batter) head and leaving some distance to help develop the sound. This is not really the case underneath a coctail drum. Perhaps an inside-shell placement would do the trick and yield a dastardly boom......Peter are you on this?
Now underneath a vertical big drum may be a different story - although I havent' tried it. I don't have one of these things rigged up now, but hopefully someone will try and prove this differently. The challenge is twofold: mic'ing a resonant (not batter) head and leaving some distance to help develop the sound. This is not really the case underneath a coctail drum. Perhaps an inside-shell placement would do the trick and yield a dastardly boom......Peter are you on this?
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palacki808
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more bottom end
I don't see a problem with turning the subkick to face up, but John has a good point about getting that thing close enough to your head without smashing it. Maybe a smaller version of it could be put together.
I have seen sound engineers use a guitar amp to get similiar effect as the subkick. If I'm not mistaken the subkick is really a speaker cone wired backwards in a drumshell. Check this out:
http://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=114189
Its a thread on using a guitar cab for picking up the low end of your kick... I don't think it would be hard for one or more of us here at the lounge to build one of these.
I have seen sound engineers use a guitar amp to get similiar effect as the subkick. If I'm not mistaken the subkick is really a speaker cone wired backwards in a drumshell. Check this out:
http://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=114189
Its a thread on using a guitar cab for picking up the low end of your kick... I don't think it would be hard for one or more of us here at the lounge to build one of these.
A homemade 10" driver is what I've used, but only in a recording situation in combination with another mic inside the shell....and only on a trad 2-headed bassdrum.
I'm sure an 8" driver would work too, but it would need to have solid freq response well below 100hz (not sure if you'd get that) - and perhaps it might benefit from some of the design trappings (like the surrounding shell) that Yamaha has incorporated into their design. See:
http://www.musiciansnews.com/drums/80/y ... elow.shtml
The distance from the head does seem to make a difference - in order to get a good bloom on the sound, you want to catch the strongest part of the lowest frequencies coming off the head and this is one reason why the subkick (or homemade solution) works well with a traditional bassdrum with a resonant front head. Considering the size of the wave, that's not going to be directly at the head but some distances away. Also positioning parallel to the head captures a stronger signal than if not.
On a cocktail kick.. I'll be glad to try it with my drum when I get the chance, however, the fundamental pitch on my 24x14 is not that low and the sound develops considerably relying on the sympathetic tuning of the top head. Like I'm sure you've all noticed, our cocktail kits can really sing in a room that favors certains frequencies.
Mounted inside a cocktail bigdrum? Probably effective and cool for some added boom. At the bottom of a big drum.....not sure
Speaking of mic'ing: I've tried a bunch of different mics at the bottom head both in a live setting and for recording. There are a bunch of dynamic mics that work well, like AKG D112 and AT ATM25, but I recently used an old CAD e100 condensor mic easily attached to one of the legs using a bit of rubber for extra isolation. It was really easy to setup and use and it sounded great on my drum. Good low frequency response and an accurate attack sound. The mic is essentially flat (dimension-wise) and therefore is easy to position. It's also an inexpensive buy, especially used - it's been out of manufacture for a good decade, I think.
I'm sure an 8" driver would work too, but it would need to have solid freq response well below 100hz (not sure if you'd get that) - and perhaps it might benefit from some of the design trappings (like the surrounding shell) that Yamaha has incorporated into their design. See:
http://www.musiciansnews.com/drums/80/y ... elow.shtml
The distance from the head does seem to make a difference - in order to get a good bloom on the sound, you want to catch the strongest part of the lowest frequencies coming off the head and this is one reason why the subkick (or homemade solution) works well with a traditional bassdrum with a resonant front head. Considering the size of the wave, that's not going to be directly at the head but some distances away. Also positioning parallel to the head captures a stronger signal than if not.
On a cocktail kick.. I'll be glad to try it with my drum when I get the chance, however, the fundamental pitch on my 24x14 is not that low and the sound develops considerably relying on the sympathetic tuning of the top head. Like I'm sure you've all noticed, our cocktail kits can really sing in a room that favors certains frequencies.
Mounted inside a cocktail bigdrum? Probably effective and cool for some added boom. At the bottom of a big drum.....not sure
Speaking of mic'ing: I've tried a bunch of different mics at the bottom head both in a live setting and for recording. There are a bunch of dynamic mics that work well, like AKG D112 and AT ATM25, but I recently used an old CAD e100 condensor mic easily attached to one of the legs using a bit of rubber for extra isolation. It was really easy to setup and use and it sounded great on my drum. Good low frequency response and an accurate attack sound. The mic is essentially flat (dimension-wise) and therefore is easy to position. It's also an inexpensive buy, especially used - it's been out of manufacture for a good decade, I think.