I've only had my Jordan kit for two weeks, and maybe that's not long enough to be comfortable playing standing. But I'm intending, unless the stage is more cramped than those I play on lately, to sit while I play. I like to be able to play a standard hi-hat, and I find crisp, precise hi-hat playing impossible standing (unless I neglect the bass drum pedal.) I've got two tall "thrones"-- one's a commercial "Roc-n'-Soc" stool: as tall as a barstool, with the characteristic tractor-styled seat. To another stool I added a dense foam cushion and vinyl cover-- looks like a traditional drum throne seat. Both of these work well. In addition, I have an unusually tall, older Sonor hi-hat stand, which can hold my top hat cymbal above the level of my snare. I'm 6' 2" tall. When I sit, I'm probably about 5' 10". So, I'm still up high, but working both feet. Again, I'm not thoroughly experienced here, but I like the two-footed effects.
Am I copping out? Not a real cocktail drummer? I can't be the only one out here.
Play Sitting?
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Keith Cronin
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Mon May 13, 2002 8:21 am
As far as I know, Peter Erskine sits when he plays his Club Jordan, so it's hardly a copout, just a different approach.
I prefer to stand, and only have a closed hihat; no actual hihat pedal. As a result, I would never use my cocktail kit on a "serious" jazz gig. But I love it for mellow singer/songwriter stuff, and for low volume clubdates.
My left foot does get sore when I play, from supporting my not-very-skinny weight. So sometimes on particularly easy songs, I'll switch and play the bass with my left foot, while supporting myself with my right.
I'm a right-hander, and I also reverse the positions of the ride and hihat - my closed hat is on my right, and my ride on my left, because I find I play the hat more than the ride when I play standup.
-KC
I prefer to stand, and only have a closed hihat; no actual hihat pedal. As a result, I would never use my cocktail kit on a "serious" jazz gig. But I love it for mellow singer/songwriter stuff, and for low volume clubdates.
My left foot does get sore when I play, from supporting my not-very-skinny weight. So sometimes on particularly easy songs, I'll switch and play the bass with my left foot, while supporting myself with my right.
I'm a right-hander, and I also reverse the positions of the ride and hihat - my closed hat is on my right, and my ride on my left, because I find I play the hat more than the ride when I play standup.
-KC
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Famous Willy
I was looking into selling my 62 Slingerland 4 piece a while back, and a guy who came to look at it so blew me away with his playing that I figured it wasn't new drums that I needed, but more woodshedding. I later found out that he had a cocktail set he played on a lot.
I mention that because I'm finding that playing closed hi hats all the time on my cocktail set makes me play way more notes on the snare than I normally do. I think the guy's cocktail playing translated to way more color on the regular set. I find that what I don't do in terms of opening the hi hat becomes more color on the snare. I haven't been able to play trad jazz on the set in a way that doesn't sound dorky, but not playing the hi hat with my foot opens me up to some really weird stuff--sometimes drum and bassy, sometimes dubish, some times cartoonish or marchish, but always idiosyncratic. I tend to play patterns that sound like overzealous non-drummers programmed on drum machines. I wasn't expecting that direction at all.
Part of me is tempted to start playing sitting down, especially if I add electronics and need to operate multiple footpedals. Right now, though, I'm afraid to nip this weird experimentation in the bud. Taking cocktail set ideas to my drum set has been a blast.
I mention that because I'm finding that playing closed hi hats all the time on my cocktail set makes me play way more notes on the snare than I normally do. I think the guy's cocktail playing translated to way more color on the regular set. I find that what I don't do in terms of opening the hi hat becomes more color on the snare. I haven't been able to play trad jazz on the set in a way that doesn't sound dorky, but not playing the hi hat with my foot opens me up to some really weird stuff--sometimes drum and bassy, sometimes dubish, some times cartoonish or marchish, but always idiosyncratic. I tend to play patterns that sound like overzealous non-drummers programmed on drum machines. I wasn't expecting that direction at all.
Part of me is tempted to start playing sitting down, especially if I add electronics and need to operate multiple footpedals. Right now, though, I'm afraid to nip this weird experimentation in the bud. Taking cocktail set ideas to my drum set has been a blast.
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Keith Cronin
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Mon May 13, 2002 8:21 am
Also, one of the reasons I play a cocktail kit is for the different headspace it puts me in. You have to rethink some of the basic elements of your playing to sound good on a cocktail kit, and I enjoy the challenge.
The biggest sacrifice I find is that it makes me realize how much I often rely on varying degrees of pressure on my hihat. On a regular kit, I do lots of half-open hihat work, using the openness of the hat to help me create dynamic shifts in the music. With a cocktail kit with closed hats, I have to find other ways to accomplish that. But like I said, I dig the challenge!
-KC
The biggest sacrifice I find is that it makes me realize how much I often rely on varying degrees of pressure on my hihat. On a regular kit, I do lots of half-open hihat work, using the openness of the hat to help me create dynamic shifts in the music. With a cocktail kit with closed hats, I have to find other ways to accomplish that. But like I said, I dig the challenge!
-KC
good points
Yeah, interesting distinctions... it is, after all, a different instrument, isn't it. Apparently, now I'm trying to hear and generate traditional kit sounds on the cocktail. Trying to play it like a standard kit. I do like it that way. But maybe, as two of you have said, once I get comfortable, and more proficient, I'll start to hear and appreciate the idiosycratic sounds of the cocktail kit.
An analogy comes to mind. I'm originally a saxophone player. I have all the saxes-- soprano, alto, tenor, baritone. It occurs to me that I do, indeed, play differently on the different horns. Each seems to call up its own necessary sylistic elements, sounds, and compromises.
Thanks for the viewpoints. I'm looking forward to evolving in new directions.
An analogy comes to mind. I'm originally a saxophone player. I have all the saxes-- soprano, alto, tenor, baritone. It occurs to me that I do, indeed, play differently on the different horns. Each seems to call up its own necessary sylistic elements, sounds, and compromises.
Thanks for the viewpoints. I'm looking forward to evolving in new directions.
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Famous Willy
I totally agree about the closed hi hat--it presents some weird challenges. Nobody ever talks about this guy as a drum influence, but one of my first big drum influences back in middle school was Keith Strickland from the B-52's. He's only interesting on the first album, but I totally stole the way his hi hats slowly open and close over several bars. I think a lot of drummers conceptualize the hi hat movements as open, closed, or in between, or chicked with the foot or splashed with the foot. But really, there are so many gradations of each that you lose with the hats locked in one place. I guess that's what makes the cocktail beats somewhat akin to drum machine beats--the consistency of the hi hat sound.
I've noticed that if the hi hats are close enough not to sizzle but not choked, that they allow for a few tone-shades. I've also started playing the bell of the hi hat and the edge more than I usually do. By the way, I use 12" 70's A Zildjian hats.
I've also noticed that one of the big differences in cocktail playing is the snare. My fan stretches out to the middle of the head, and I crank the head really tight. The rim shot sounds timbale-like, the edge is very nasal and sometimes gets this strange but cool ringy over-tone, and the middle is very dead and focused. I've found too that a hard hit to the center makes the snares flap back against the head. The 15" head allows for several different "tone regions" on the drum, especially if I drop the tuning of one of the pegs. And then there is the weird effect that comes from the fact that the drum is really deep and has a baffle 6" below the top head. The sound at times wants to be really high pitched and at others low. The other thing is that the drum is way more articulate than I am used to--I like ringy, jazzy drums. The fan underneath the top head prevents the sound from developing before the snare hits the head. So I'm finding my playing becoming more precise and my beats changing to accommodate a lack of sustain.
One thing I was wondering is what tips people might have to add more sustain to the drum. I'm finding that "meat and potatoes" kinds of beats don't work super well, as the length of the notes I play don't fill up enough space to warrant simple playing. The irony is that I figured since the cocktail set is so simple, that my playing would get simpler. Rim clicks are fine and brushes are fine, but either the snare decay is too fast or the long tones are too thin when I hit with a stick. Also, my bass is really punchy, but again lacks the sustain I am used to. Should I vent more, or get a really reflective baffle? What can I do tuning wise? Any hints would be welcome.
I've noticed that if the hi hats are close enough not to sizzle but not choked, that they allow for a few tone-shades. I've also started playing the bell of the hi hat and the edge more than I usually do. By the way, I use 12" 70's A Zildjian hats.
I've also noticed that one of the big differences in cocktail playing is the snare. My fan stretches out to the middle of the head, and I crank the head really tight. The rim shot sounds timbale-like, the edge is very nasal and sometimes gets this strange but cool ringy over-tone, and the middle is very dead and focused. I've found too that a hard hit to the center makes the snares flap back against the head. The 15" head allows for several different "tone regions" on the drum, especially if I drop the tuning of one of the pegs. And then there is the weird effect that comes from the fact that the drum is really deep and has a baffle 6" below the top head. The sound at times wants to be really high pitched and at others low. The other thing is that the drum is way more articulate than I am used to--I like ringy, jazzy drums. The fan underneath the top head prevents the sound from developing before the snare hits the head. So I'm finding my playing becoming more precise and my beats changing to accommodate a lack of sustain.
One thing I was wondering is what tips people might have to add more sustain to the drum. I'm finding that "meat and potatoes" kinds of beats don't work super well, as the length of the notes I play don't fill up enough space to warrant simple playing. The irony is that I figured since the cocktail set is so simple, that my playing would get simpler. Rim clicks are fine and brushes are fine, but either the snare decay is too fast or the long tones are too thin when I hit with a stick. Also, my bass is really punchy, but again lacks the sustain I am used to. Should I vent more, or get a really reflective baffle? What can I do tuning wise? Any hints would be welcome.