Hey!
I went to the music store the other day and played what I think is the perfect cocktail cymbal--the Zildjian 17" Remix ride. It has controled volume, great ride and bell sounds, a great crash, and a small size. I've heard of jazz guys like Peter Erskine flipping over the cymbal, and I've noticed they're getting hard to get. Still, I didn't feel like shelling out $150, so I'll probably use my 19" 70's A crash ride instead.
Goofing around in the music store made me think about cocktail cymbals. I've been looking for 60's and 70's A's that are marked down dirt cheap used, but haven't found anything that beat what I already have.
I was thinking though...I remember crash rides being way more popular when I was younger. I remember when I was fifteen seeing a set with two A Zildjian 15" rides, too. I mean, they were stamped as rides, not just crashes or hi hat cymbals used as rides. Have you noticed that Zildjian hasn't made tiny ride cymbals, other than the remix which most online places don't even stock in its smaller 17" version, in years? I've also noticed that they don't market crash rides at all. Sabian doesn't seem to either, except for the el sabor and things like that. Paiste still seems to have tiny ride cymbals and plenty of crash rides in stores, but doesn't plug them. I'm curious why small rides and crash rides are out of favor--especially with so many people returning to small drumsets and jazz sensibilities in their playing, if not jazz itself. My hunch is that small cymbals went out with live music at happy hour, but then why wouldn't they come back with live music at coffee houses?
The question seems relevant to this forum--cocktail drums themselves are not just about the rebirth of cocktail chic, but about about the proliferation of coffee houses and the accompanying gigs. Remo even marketed their cocktail drum as a coffee house drum.
I was wondering:
1)if you have any insights into this phenomenon;
2)if any older players can tell me if I'm misremembering the past;
3)what your favorite modern or vintage cocktail cymbals are.
Thanks! BTW--I'll probably use my 19" crash ride and my 70's 12" A Zildjian hi hats. If I use a splash, it will be a 90's 6" A, a 10" Wuhan, or my favorite but ugliest, a Sabian B8 Pro 10" china splash. I might swap some of my splashes for a Bosphorous 16" crash that is totally ride-able and use that with the hi hats instead.
Talk about your cocktail cymbals
For cymbals I use 13" Zildjian hats, (I thinks they are A's made in the 80's), 18" K Custom Dark Crash, used as a ride, 16" K Custom Dark Crash, 10" A splash. I do have a 15" K Fast crash ordered and some other Zildjians ordered for the coctail kit but I haven't recieved them yet. I'd love to add my china but hey then I'm just building a bigger kit and that is the reason I love the cocktail kit, cause it's SMALL.
Dinkus
Dinkus
-
Shanfield
cymbals
I play an 80's Zildjian K 18" crash/ride with a 10" Sabian duo splash and 80's Sabian 13" fusion hi hats. The crash ride is fantastic... great bell sound, great stick slap, tight enough ping, and excellent crash. All around a great cymbal. In the country western group I play the cocktail kit in, it never makes sense to use a full crash (or I'd use my 15" K paper thin), so I'm using the splash. It's got nice dark tones and seems more expressive than your average $30 trash splash cymbal. The hi hats are a compromise in this situation, them simply being what I have at the moment. Consistent with my choice not to overpower with a regular crash cymbal, I find that the heavy hand hammered top to the sabian fusion hats is a bit dead. Considering that most cocktail set players can't control hi hat tension *and* operate a kick pedal at the same time, I find myself setting the tension somewhere between "just sitting there" and "slightly loose." I can get a lot of different hi hat sounds by play different parts of the cymbals at different angles, but I wish I had thinner, more complex sounding hats, like thinner permutations of the 13" Zildjian Constantinoples. Since they're essentially hand made cymbals, they appear to be highly inconsistent in thickness (and consenquently tone), making them tough to choose. When I find a drum shop that has more than 1 set at any given time, I'll audition some and let you all know how they go.
-
John Mettam
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2000 2:01 pm
Cocktail Cymbals
I've been using a single 14" Zildjian Custom 'A' crash for several years now and it has served me well! It has a great crash , great bell, great build between ping and crash, AND with the right stick, a great ride sound. Since my drum is a 14" it helps keep the balance together really nicely (And it fits right in the case). For sticks I found that I needed a very small tip and eventually found 'Diamond Tips' from Joe Porcaro
http://www.porcaro.com/Content/framepgs/sticks.asp
They have very fine edged tips. I use the plastic tip 'spang-a-lang' to get a little more life out of them!
If you want to hear the cymbal in action, check out the clips at:
http://www.cocktailangst.com/clips.html
The first link is the whole movie (about 10mins). Only that one cymbal (OK maybe ONE cymbal swell from a larger crash). The drums are all cocktail drum as well with percussion overdubs and funny North Drum 'Tom Fills' over-dubbed on the last cut .
Enjoy
John
http://www.porcaro.com/Content/framepgs/sticks.asp
They have very fine edged tips. I use the plastic tip 'spang-a-lang' to get a little more life out of them!
If you want to hear the cymbal in action, check out the clips at:
http://www.cocktailangst.com/clips.html
The first link is the whole movie (about 10mins). Only that one cymbal (OK maybe ONE cymbal swell from a larger crash). The drums are all cocktail drum as well with percussion overdubs and funny North Drum 'Tom Fills' over-dubbed on the last cut .
Enjoy
John
-
palacki808
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2003 10:50 am
- Contact:
17" remix ride
I noticed some have posted they were considering a 17" remix ride. I have a 17" remix ride and I like it. It records well, but the spread and build up are not as much as you may think. The bell sound is also weak compared to most zildjian cymbals. I suggest you try playing one before buying because its not a typical ride. Be safe and play one before you drop the cash for a cymbal that you're not completely satisfied with.
-Joe
-Joe
-
famouswilly
remix
I've been checking out the remix about once a month now at our local music store. I'm convinced it's the cymbal I want. I bet there is some variation from cymbal to cymbal, so I'm kind of paranoid about buying one online. The one I heard has the perfect amount of bell, spread, crash, and stick definition for my set (12" 70's A closed hats, an LP bongo cowbell, a 10 x 8" tom, and a 15x24" baffled cocktail drum). I just want one cymbal, and this one seems like it can do it all. It also seems like a decent "unplugged cymbal" for when I do my folk-rock acoustic guitar gig. I don't want to use more than two cymbals for that gig, and I've been using a 20" A medium ride and a really old Sabian HH Harvey Mason model flat ride with 2 rivets. I like flat rides on sets because they have a gong/china type sound when you crash them. But in that band, a ride that doubles as a crash would work well, too.
I have another question--since I don't feel like shelling out $150 for a cymbal right now, I've been experimenting with--gasp--taping up my cymbals. I've experimented with my 70's A Zildjian 19" crash ride and my 17" K dark crash to mixed results. So far, I'm finding myself rather artless with the task. When I started playing drums, people were still taping up their heads like crazy (blech) but cymbal taping was largely a thing of the past. I was wondering if any old pros know any good taping techniques to make ringy cymbals more ride like. Please help. I'm curious.
-Will
I have another question--since I don't feel like shelling out $150 for a cymbal right now, I've been experimenting with--gasp--taping up my cymbals. I've experimented with my 70's A Zildjian 19" crash ride and my 17" K dark crash to mixed results. So far, I'm finding myself rather artless with the task. When I started playing drums, people were still taping up their heads like crazy (blech) but cymbal taping was largely a thing of the past. I was wondering if any old pros know any good taping techniques to make ringy cymbals more ride like. Please help. I'm curious.
-Will
-
Jayce
Remix rides
Famous Willy:
You are absolutely right about variation from cymbal to cymbal with the Remix rides. I had the rare opportunity of playing three of the 18" Remix "Breakbeat" rides side by side in a local Music-go-Round. One was used, two were new. The used one was very muted... sounded as if it were taped, but wasn't. The other two had distinctly different characters-- I chose one with a K- like darker tonality, and a warmer wash than the other-- which had more A-like tones. I was just lucky. I'd never seen more than one Remix at a time, and that was some time ago. They seem to have become rare in stores around here.
John
You are absolutely right about variation from cymbal to cymbal with the Remix rides. I had the rare opportunity of playing three of the 18" Remix "Breakbeat" rides side by side in a local Music-go-Round. One was used, two were new. The used one was very muted... sounded as if it were taped, but wasn't. The other two had distinctly different characters-- I chose one with a K- like darker tonality, and a warmer wash than the other-- which had more A-like tones. I was just lucky. I'd never seen more than one Remix at a time, and that was some time ago. They seem to have become rare in stores around here.
John
-
davidtk
cymbals
for my cocktail like gig...14"vfx flat ride, zildjian 8" A splash and an old pr of Wuhan 13" hats...the wuhans were purchased before they were doing western cymbals...very hammered.
steveweiss.com has some discontinued zildjians and there were a lot of small crash/rides and flat rides...like I never heard of...
dtk
steveweiss.com has some discontinued zildjians and there were a lot of small crash/rides and flat rides...like I never heard of...
dtk
I started assembling my cocktail kit about a year ago now. I have played standard drum kits for many years, so I've aquired some good cymbals over the years. All of what I use on my cocktail kit are 30-year-old Zildjian A's: 18" crash / ride, 16" thin crash, 14" hi-hats, and a newer (1990's) 8" splash. My crash / ride is a cymbal I just can't stay away from - a loud, ringing bell, good ride tones near the bell or near the edge (especially at lower volumes), and a deep crash sound. A great all-purpose cymbal for a minimalist setup.
My hi-hats are what I can't find equivalents of - I have played over a hundred sets and would not trade mine for any of them. They don't seem like anything special, but they sound better (to me) than any others I've heard. I think they're thinner than most new ones.
I have a tendency to think that cymbals (like many other things) were made better years ago than they are today.
My hi-hats are what I can't find equivalents of - I have played over a hundred sets and would not trade mine for any of them. They don't seem like anything special, but they sound better (to me) than any others I've heard. I think they're thinner than most new ones.
I have a tendency to think that cymbals (like many other things) were made better years ago than they are today.
Hey Tikifreak!
I'm torn on whether cymbals were better. Here's my hunch--I grew up playing Zildjians and was a total Zildjian nut and I mostly ignored other companies' cymbals until a few years ago. What I've noticed with Zildjian is that unless you are ready to shell out $400 for a K constantinople, their cymbals aren't what they used to be. I've heard a few reasons for this. For a while, I thought it was that they were directing all their energy toward their B8 lines (now B12) to grab young drummers. I've always loved the true A cymbals (although A customs are cool, too), but I feel like they've neglected the A line since the introduction of customs of all sorts and the beginner cymbals. But I think to older pros, the Zildjian sound is either the old A sound or the Turkish K sound. Since most people who have always loved Zildjians couldn't really get a hold of a decent Turkish K (unless they grew up out East), their ideal sound is the A sound of the 50's-70's (although we should buy up the 40's A's--they were hand-hammered and are much cheaper than old K's).
Anyway, the rumor I heard that explains a few things to me is that Zildjian only quality checks 1 in 10 cymbals nowadays. That would explain why I can hit 40 cymbals at Guitar Center and only think that four even sound like musical instruments, whereas in high school more than half the Zildjians I heard sounded cool.
Lately, I've really gotten into Sabian cymbals. They sound test every cymbal before it leaves the factory. Also, I've learned more over the years about why Robert Zildjian left Zildjian, and the reasons explain a lot about why the newer Sabians remind me of my old hollow logo 70's A's. I had always thought the fight was over silver content, but I guess I was wrong on that one. Robert didn't want to move into B8 budget cymbals or to compete with Paiste with pro-level B8 cymbals (although obviously he did down the line). He had to fight like crazy at Zildjian to reinstate old-world manufacturing techniques--he was the one that got Zildjian to start making American K's. I guess when Robert left the company, most of the Armenian and Turkish cymbal makers he had hired for Zildjian went with him--most of them were already at the Canadian plant which became Sabian anyway.
I still have hope for Zildjian, and when I try out new cymbals, I always start with Zildjian, but in my last twenty trips to music stores, I struggle to find Ziljdians I like outside of the K Constantinople line, but find tons of Sabians with wobble, complexity, contrast, etc. I get why people like A customs and K customs, but it seems like when Zildjian hit the jackpot with them, they shifted their ears toward cymbals with a lot of cut--they make their cymbals to sound good over loud amplifiers (which is what I used to dislike about Paiste, but it seems like Paiste has moved away from that even in a lot of modern 2002's I've heard). I don't think that's been the thrust of Sabian's thought. On the one hand, the Zildjian clunkers I've played on my friends' sets sound great when I'm in the audience at their shows, but on the other hand, they are unresponsive and unidimensional when I tap them lightly. Through most of their lines, Sabian seems to set their ears on making cymbals that respond nicely at all volume levels, like my old Zildjian A's do. But they also have character like my old A's do, back when the cymbals were ear-checked before leaving the factory and stamped Zilco or whatever if they weren't quite up to snuff. I bought a Sabian 22" HHX Legacy Heavy Ride (which is actually more of a medium light), and it blows my mind--I picked it over some 22" K con prototypes I was checking out because it had more wobble and more dynamic range but a similar dark tone.
As to the bigger question of whether cymbals aren't as good today as they were in the past--with all the Bosphorus and Agop cymbals at our disposal, UFIP's, Paiste Signatures and Dark Energies, Zildjian K Cons, Sabian Hand Hammereds, HHX's, and Vaults, and even a proliferation of hand-hammered, B20 beginners cymbals, it's hard for me to imagine that contemporary companies are dropping the ball. But if it's a question of comparing A Zildjians of the past to A Zildjians of the present, I'd say compare the old A's new Sabian AA's instead. I don't think it's coincidence that so many drummers who defined their cymbal sound with A's in the seventies first switched to 80's K Zildjians (which sounded like nice older A's) and then left for Sabian.
Mango--can you tell I miss cymbalholic.com?
I'm torn on whether cymbals were better. Here's my hunch--I grew up playing Zildjians and was a total Zildjian nut and I mostly ignored other companies' cymbals until a few years ago. What I've noticed with Zildjian is that unless you are ready to shell out $400 for a K constantinople, their cymbals aren't what they used to be. I've heard a few reasons for this. For a while, I thought it was that they were directing all their energy toward their B8 lines (now B12) to grab young drummers. I've always loved the true A cymbals (although A customs are cool, too), but I feel like they've neglected the A line since the introduction of customs of all sorts and the beginner cymbals. But I think to older pros, the Zildjian sound is either the old A sound or the Turkish K sound. Since most people who have always loved Zildjians couldn't really get a hold of a decent Turkish K (unless they grew up out East), their ideal sound is the A sound of the 50's-70's (although we should buy up the 40's A's--they were hand-hammered and are much cheaper than old K's).
Anyway, the rumor I heard that explains a few things to me is that Zildjian only quality checks 1 in 10 cymbals nowadays. That would explain why I can hit 40 cymbals at Guitar Center and only think that four even sound like musical instruments, whereas in high school more than half the Zildjians I heard sounded cool.
Lately, I've really gotten into Sabian cymbals. They sound test every cymbal before it leaves the factory. Also, I've learned more over the years about why Robert Zildjian left Zildjian, and the reasons explain a lot about why the newer Sabians remind me of my old hollow logo 70's A's. I had always thought the fight was over silver content, but I guess I was wrong on that one. Robert didn't want to move into B8 budget cymbals or to compete with Paiste with pro-level B8 cymbals (although obviously he did down the line). He had to fight like crazy at Zildjian to reinstate old-world manufacturing techniques--he was the one that got Zildjian to start making American K's. I guess when Robert left the company, most of the Armenian and Turkish cymbal makers he had hired for Zildjian went with him--most of them were already at the Canadian plant which became Sabian anyway.
I still have hope for Zildjian, and when I try out new cymbals, I always start with Zildjian, but in my last twenty trips to music stores, I struggle to find Ziljdians I like outside of the K Constantinople line, but find tons of Sabians with wobble, complexity, contrast, etc. I get why people like A customs and K customs, but it seems like when Zildjian hit the jackpot with them, they shifted their ears toward cymbals with a lot of cut--they make their cymbals to sound good over loud amplifiers (which is what I used to dislike about Paiste, but it seems like Paiste has moved away from that even in a lot of modern 2002's I've heard). I don't think that's been the thrust of Sabian's thought. On the one hand, the Zildjian clunkers I've played on my friends' sets sound great when I'm in the audience at their shows, but on the other hand, they are unresponsive and unidimensional when I tap them lightly. Through most of their lines, Sabian seems to set their ears on making cymbals that respond nicely at all volume levels, like my old Zildjian A's do. But they also have character like my old A's do, back when the cymbals were ear-checked before leaving the factory and stamped Zilco or whatever if they weren't quite up to snuff. I bought a Sabian 22" HHX Legacy Heavy Ride (which is actually more of a medium light), and it blows my mind--I picked it over some 22" K con prototypes I was checking out because it had more wobble and more dynamic range but a similar dark tone.
As to the bigger question of whether cymbals aren't as good today as they were in the past--with all the Bosphorus and Agop cymbals at our disposal, UFIP's, Paiste Signatures and Dark Energies, Zildjian K Cons, Sabian Hand Hammereds, HHX's, and Vaults, and even a proliferation of hand-hammered, B20 beginners cymbals, it's hard for me to imagine that contemporary companies are dropping the ball. But if it's a question of comparing A Zildjians of the past to A Zildjians of the present, I'd say compare the old A's new Sabian AA's instead. I don't think it's coincidence that so many drummers who defined their cymbal sound with A's in the seventies first switched to 80's K Zildjians (which sounded like nice older A's) and then left for Sabian.
Mango--can you tell I miss cymbalholic.com?
Hey Will
Cool post - and you sure know your cymbal history!
I had a real turn around in the late 70s with my cymbal choices, however none of it was based on as much knowledge as presented here. You'll all likely want to burn me at the stake, but I all but abandoned my interest in Zildjian A's by 1980 or so. As a young drummer in the late 60s and early 70s, A's were the pros' choice, Sabian hadn't surfaced and Paiste was the European alternative (and out of my budget range). Very broad generalizations, I know, but at that time my ears grew accustomed to and expected the dynamics and color of period As.
As I heard some of the sound creation offeriings from Paiste in the early 80s, I started getting interested in extremes. At that point I found it more interesting to have a complement of cymbals that ranged from thunder dark to shimmery (some older Ks) to aggressive and brilliant (some Paiste and Sabian). The middle of the road as I viewed it and as represented by the As of my day, was kind of lost to me at that point.
This prevails with my cymbal tastes today, though I'm always in awe of a cymbal that comes out of nowhere as an interesting and complex instrument. Today I own only one A and it's cracked. Perhaps I need to test drive some recent As and see what my ears tell me. But if an unusual cymbal from the far reaches of the earth has a special song to sing, I'll likely be drawn to it.
Cool post - and you sure know your cymbal history!
I had a real turn around in the late 70s with my cymbal choices, however none of it was based on as much knowledge as presented here. You'll all likely want to burn me at the stake, but I all but abandoned my interest in Zildjian A's by 1980 or so. As a young drummer in the late 60s and early 70s, A's were the pros' choice, Sabian hadn't surfaced and Paiste was the European alternative (and out of my budget range). Very broad generalizations, I know, but at that time my ears grew accustomed to and expected the dynamics and color of period As.
As I heard some of the sound creation offeriings from Paiste in the early 80s, I started getting interested in extremes. At that point I found it more interesting to have a complement of cymbals that ranged from thunder dark to shimmery (some older Ks) to aggressive and brilliant (some Paiste and Sabian). The middle of the road as I viewed it and as represented by the As of my day, was kind of lost to me at that point.
This prevails with my cymbal tastes today, though I'm always in awe of a cymbal that comes out of nowhere as an interesting and complex instrument. Today I own only one A and it's cracked. Perhaps I need to test drive some recent As and see what my ears tell me. But if an unusual cymbal from the far reaches of the earth has a special song to sing, I'll likely be drawn to it.
-
matthew medeiros
- Posts: 161
- Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 6:43 pm
- Location: Hollister Ca.
- Contact:
Cymbals
Wow! great topic replies. Most of my cymbals I have I bought years ago so I am somewhat out of the loop on the proliference of new cymbals and all the models & such. But reading through the posts I get a sense of.......That first, nothing beats trying out a cymbal live before you buy. Second, it seems that cymbals very within their own manufacture lines so it's possible to get a clunker in any manufacturer or pick up a gem. Thirdly, playing styles vary so you have to trust your ear and what sounds good to you. I've found that sometimes I can't get a sense of what a cymbal is really going to sound like until I play live with a full band, because I just play differently when I'm playing with a full band than when I'm plinking a cymbal in the store. My main crash/ride on my set is a 60's 18 inch A Zildian (crash cymbal), it's just heavy enough to ride on and I move to the outer edge to crash it and it has great bell sounds. I think I just got lucky with it, as I bought it used quite a few years ago. I use newer Paiste 14's as hi-hats. They came out of Stanford Univ. marching band, Paiste gives em new cymbals every year so they sell all the year old stuff at cheep prices, I think I paid well under $100. for the pair.
Matthew
Hey Multiperc!
I remember playing what I believe was an 18" Sound Creation (or formula?) crash with a semi-flat bell (going from the bridge of the cymbal, the bell looked like a bell, then got completely flat about an inch off the bridge). That was a gorgeous cymbal--the first Paist I really liked. It was on the lesson drumset where I used to take lessons.
I get what you're saying about Paistes--they had more distinctive sounds in the 80's than Zildjian or Sabian did. I think you'd have to strain a little to find a non-602 Paiste from that era that would work for jazz, but they definitely had interesting sounds--clean and distinctive with lots of cut--they really claimed their place in the music, where I think the older Zildjians hearkened back to a day when cymbals and drums were more like smoke mixing in with the other instruments and disappearing.
I actually got my new HHX Legacy ride because I was bored with how meat and potatoes my 80's 20" A medium ride sounded. It was the kind of cymbal that was perfect in every situation but stood out in none. Incidently, every drumshop I go to, I hit the new 20" A medium rides. They sound the same as the ones from the 80's. My hunch is that since Zildjian doesn't ear check many cymbals anymore and since machines do most of the work, and since catalog sales make up most of their business, they stick to safe bets in the A line. They've been making 20" A Medium Rides for so long they probably can't screw them up. You could order one from a catalog and know within a 3rd what the sound will be before you get it.
My 70's A's have a sound that really has gone out of favor. The 19" crash ride doesn't sound have any ping to it like most of the new Zildjian rides, it reacts at light volumes, but has a really complex roar to it as a crash that the new, brighter, cleaner crashes lack. I played a 20" A crash the other day that was less sensitive and dynamic than this cymbal. My 16" A crash is really rich in harmonics--the best I can say is that it is really bright AND dark at the same time--the pitch is high and the overtones are melodic, but there are so many overtones that it distorts microphones. It sounds great live, but I've never found anyone who could tame it in the studio without losing its tone. My 12" and 14" light hi hats are both 70's A's. The 12"'s sound a bit like new beats but but lighter, darker, and faster. The 14" lights are completely out of style--a lot like the 19" crash ride. Just a very nice, warm, swishy, non-cutting vintage tone. I had a really nice 20" riveted swish from the 70's, too that I sold to help pay for my new Sabian. It wasn't very rideable, but it had a lush, warm, huge crash sound than sustained forever and had just enough trash in it to stand out as a swish. The modern swish knocker is stiff and brittle compared to that cymbal.
Maybe what happened was Zildjian tried to do its version of Paiste and failed until it tried to reinvent the K's, where Sabian tried to stay true to the ideals of the K and A Zildjian traditions and succeeded. And Paiste just stuck to being Paiste. Of course, Zildjian is still the king in terms of sales and name recognition. I just dislike their strategy of ignoring the A line that always defined what they were as a company, catering 70% of their business to tone-deaf teenagers, and maintaining their reputation of quality with the top five percent of their remaining 30%--and then at exorbitant costs.
Incidently--my current sound is kind of a wall of cymbal sound. I use all my cymbals for riding and crashing--12" 70's A hats, 17" 80's K dark crash, 20" early 80's Sabian Harvey Mason flat ride with rivets (or my 20" A medium ride, now that I've put four rivets in it), 22" Sabian HHX Legacy heavy ride, and a 21" Wuhan china with four rivets. The effect is kind of a percolating sound--it's more like I'm stirring an atmosphere then giving each cymbal its place. If I need one to stand out, I hit it hard or hit a bell, but even then, the sound moves back to overtones.
Will
I remember playing what I believe was an 18" Sound Creation (or formula?) crash with a semi-flat bell (going from the bridge of the cymbal, the bell looked like a bell, then got completely flat about an inch off the bridge). That was a gorgeous cymbal--the first Paist I really liked. It was on the lesson drumset where I used to take lessons.
I get what you're saying about Paistes--they had more distinctive sounds in the 80's than Zildjian or Sabian did. I think you'd have to strain a little to find a non-602 Paiste from that era that would work for jazz, but they definitely had interesting sounds--clean and distinctive with lots of cut--they really claimed their place in the music, where I think the older Zildjians hearkened back to a day when cymbals and drums were more like smoke mixing in with the other instruments and disappearing.
I actually got my new HHX Legacy ride because I was bored with how meat and potatoes my 80's 20" A medium ride sounded. It was the kind of cymbal that was perfect in every situation but stood out in none. Incidently, every drumshop I go to, I hit the new 20" A medium rides. They sound the same as the ones from the 80's. My hunch is that since Zildjian doesn't ear check many cymbals anymore and since machines do most of the work, and since catalog sales make up most of their business, they stick to safe bets in the A line. They've been making 20" A Medium Rides for so long they probably can't screw them up. You could order one from a catalog and know within a 3rd what the sound will be before you get it.
My 70's A's have a sound that really has gone out of favor. The 19" crash ride doesn't sound have any ping to it like most of the new Zildjian rides, it reacts at light volumes, but has a really complex roar to it as a crash that the new, brighter, cleaner crashes lack. I played a 20" A crash the other day that was less sensitive and dynamic than this cymbal. My 16" A crash is really rich in harmonics--the best I can say is that it is really bright AND dark at the same time--the pitch is high and the overtones are melodic, but there are so many overtones that it distorts microphones. It sounds great live, but I've never found anyone who could tame it in the studio without losing its tone. My 12" and 14" light hi hats are both 70's A's. The 12"'s sound a bit like new beats but but lighter, darker, and faster. The 14" lights are completely out of style--a lot like the 19" crash ride. Just a very nice, warm, swishy, non-cutting vintage tone. I had a really nice 20" riveted swish from the 70's, too that I sold to help pay for my new Sabian. It wasn't very rideable, but it had a lush, warm, huge crash sound than sustained forever and had just enough trash in it to stand out as a swish. The modern swish knocker is stiff and brittle compared to that cymbal.
Maybe what happened was Zildjian tried to do its version of Paiste and failed until it tried to reinvent the K's, where Sabian tried to stay true to the ideals of the K and A Zildjian traditions and succeeded. And Paiste just stuck to being Paiste. Of course, Zildjian is still the king in terms of sales and name recognition. I just dislike their strategy of ignoring the A line that always defined what they were as a company, catering 70% of their business to tone-deaf teenagers, and maintaining their reputation of quality with the top five percent of their remaining 30%--and then at exorbitant costs.
Incidently--my current sound is kind of a wall of cymbal sound. I use all my cymbals for riding and crashing--12" 70's A hats, 17" 80's K dark crash, 20" early 80's Sabian Harvey Mason flat ride with rivets (or my 20" A medium ride, now that I've put four rivets in it), 22" Sabian HHX Legacy heavy ride, and a 21" Wuhan china with four rivets. The effect is kind of a percolating sound--it's more like I'm stirring an atmosphere then giving each cymbal its place. If I need one to stand out, I hit it hard or hit a bell, but even then, the sound moves back to overtones.
Will
Will -
You sound to be extremely passionate about your cymbals - and an expert! Would love to hear your playing sometime. I feel similarly about my pile of circular metals and am lucky to have a big assortment of mostly beatuful instruments. The ones that aren't so beautiful are treasures, though.
My oldest cymbal happens to be a 12" stanople from the 20s. It has a tiny edge crack, some dents and is rippled with warps. It has one sound and one sound only. I hope it outlives me. My other favorite which is now lost was a 22" A swish that I found in the back of a local music store in Cleveland back in the mid 70s. It was old then, only $65 and a gem. I drilled it for rivets (stupid kid, I was/am) but that didn't diminish it's charm and smoke. THat cymbal was stolen while I attended a summer semester at Bennington College. The Zildjian factory was nice enough to help me select a replacement but no such sucess replacing what I had. Thieves suck.
My favorite crash ever was an 18" 1970 A thin crash that wasn't mine but a friend's. It was so responsive and fast for its size but didn't have emphasized low frequency fundamental typical of many thinner cymbals. Just excellent for light crashes, heavy crashes and funky ass chokes. No good as a ride though.
I'm loving one cymbal right now and it's in the center of my cocktail kit. I think I wrote about it elsewhere. It (embarrasingly) is made by Wuhan and is one of their 'traditional' 16" thin crashes. I took the gamble and ordered it from a local distributor and totally lucked out. It has everything: a beautiful wash, loud and soft crashes, a sparkly but defined bell and dynamically it complements the range and size of the rest of the kit. A really nice instrument.
Matthew -
I'm amazed that anyone can PLINK in a store and accurately assess how the cymbal will work with whatever kit and whatever other cymbals. I sure can't - it's been the hardest thing for me. I can definitely identify the good ones, but I find that a cymbal and it's identity becomes evident and alive in musical context. Your Paiste hats sound interesting - are they actual marching cymbals or a pair of hats? Stanford is a gorgeous place...I used to live in Palo Alto and I miss it - I envy your locale.
You sound to be extremely passionate about your cymbals - and an expert! Would love to hear your playing sometime. I feel similarly about my pile of circular metals and am lucky to have a big assortment of mostly beatuful instruments. The ones that aren't so beautiful are treasures, though.
My oldest cymbal happens to be a 12" stanople from the 20s. It has a tiny edge crack, some dents and is rippled with warps. It has one sound and one sound only. I hope it outlives me. My other favorite which is now lost was a 22" A swish that I found in the back of a local music store in Cleveland back in the mid 70s. It was old then, only $65 and a gem. I drilled it for rivets (stupid kid, I was/am) but that didn't diminish it's charm and smoke. THat cymbal was stolen while I attended a summer semester at Bennington College. The Zildjian factory was nice enough to help me select a replacement but no such sucess replacing what I had. Thieves suck.
My favorite crash ever was an 18" 1970 A thin crash that wasn't mine but a friend's. It was so responsive and fast for its size but didn't have emphasized low frequency fundamental typical of many thinner cymbals. Just excellent for light crashes, heavy crashes and funky ass chokes. No good as a ride though.
I'm loving one cymbal right now and it's in the center of my cocktail kit. I think I wrote about it elsewhere. It (embarrasingly) is made by Wuhan and is one of their 'traditional' 16" thin crashes. I took the gamble and ordered it from a local distributor and totally lucked out. It has everything: a beautiful wash, loud and soft crashes, a sparkly but defined bell and dynamically it complements the range and size of the rest of the kit. A really nice instrument.
Matthew -
I'm amazed that anyone can PLINK in a store and accurately assess how the cymbal will work with whatever kit and whatever other cymbals. I sure can't - it's been the hardest thing for me. I can definitely identify the good ones, but I find that a cymbal and it's identity becomes evident and alive in musical context. Your Paiste hats sound interesting - are they actual marching cymbals or a pair of hats? Stanford is a gorgeous place...I used to live in Palo Alto and I miss it - I envy your locale.