I came in to a land fall of cash, well not really, we did get a $1000.00 tip on a 3 hour gig so I'm planning a new build. I'm looking at ofcourse building a cocktail kit but i have some reservations of what size of shell diameter wise. My Club Jordon is 15" and I'm quite happy with all of it's aspects of sound but one can never help but wonder if I could squeeze out a little more sub out of a kick without destroying the tone, feel of the snare by going with a 16" shell. I'm leaning to a 15" and probably stay to 5 or 6 thin plys if they will build it and reinforcement rings to help keep the tone a little low. Also I know it's around this site somewhere but I will need 2 snare strainers, I think someone once said Gibralter makes them. Can someone point me in the right direction. We'll see where this adventure takes me. The last kit I built far surpassed anything I've ever bought and continues to be a true pleasure to play.
Dinkus
Shell Size
-
mangorockfish
- Posts: 182
- Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:23 pm
- Location: arkansas
Shell size
Hey Dink,
About the snare set-up. The one Phattie used on palacki808's drum looks like two Gibralter internal mufflers, part# SC4400, with the pads replaced by snare fans.
Hope this helps. It is the set-up I 'm going to put in my drum.
Mangorockfish
About the snare set-up. The one Phattie used on palacki808's drum looks like two Gibralter internal mufflers, part# SC4400, with the pads replaced by snare fans.
Hope this helps. It is the set-up I 'm going to put in my drum.
Mangorockfish
-
Keith Cronin
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Mon May 13, 2002 8:21 am
Keith, does the snare maintain the same feel and can you crank it up if needed. I know the 15 snare is workable but I really need to know about the 16". I like the real estate factor for sure, good point. I mostly work Rock and Country so the snare must be able to "pop" when needed.
Mangorockfish, thanks for the tip that will work in a pinch, I've built previous ones with a ludwig but just wanted to know if there are premade ones in existance. I may even venture out and custom make a release and tension version similar to a snare but I'll have to see.
Also is it worth adding 2 more lugs for a total of 10 to a 16"
Dinkus
Mangorockfish, thanks for the tip that will work in a pinch, I've built previous ones with a ludwig but just wanted to know if there are premade ones in existance. I may even venture out and custom make a release and tension version similar to a snare but I'll have to see.
Also is it worth adding 2 more lugs for a total of 10 to a 16"
Dinkus
-
palacki808
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2003 10:50 am
- Contact:
dual snares
Hey dinkus, if you're looking for the strainers for your drum try calling dennis at phattie drums. I think he does use the gibraltar tone controls, but I am not certain. The snare wires simply held on with a small screw and nut.
He didn't however put any baffles in my drum. I specifically asked him not to because the cocktail drum that liked the most didn't have a baffle (it was a 14X24" slingerland). So I don't know if the baffle affects the brush sound in a negative or a positive way.
-Joe
He didn't however put any baffles in my drum. I specifically asked him not to because the cocktail drum that liked the most didn't have a baffle (it was a 14X24" slingerland). So I don't know if the baffle affects the brush sound in a negative or a positive way.
-Joe
-
Keith Cronin
- Posts: 40
- Joined: Mon May 13, 2002 8:21 am
Dinkus, I have my top head cranked pretty tight. It sounds best when I hit it off-center. And I think it sounds fatter when played with rods, like Vater Acousticks. But the best is playing it with brushes - it's a blast to have all that room to work with.
But with sticks it is NOT a big fat cracking snare sound - it's much lighter and thinner sounding than a normal snare. Getting a high pitch isn't a problem; it's just not a real dominant sound - that's because of the baffle.
I wouldn't bother with 10 lugs - 8 is fine.
kc
But with sticks it is NOT a big fat cracking snare sound - it's much lighter and thinner sounding than a normal snare. Getting a high pitch isn't a problem; it's just not a real dominant sound - that's because of the baffle.
I wouldn't bother with 10 lugs - 8 is fine.
kc
-
fw
Hey Dinkus!
I always thought reinforcement rings kicked the pitch of a drum up, not down. The drums I have without reinforcement rings are capable of much lower fundamental tones than the ones with. My 10x8" maple tom without rings can get a stronger tone at a lower pitch than my 13x9" Slingerland 3 ply mahogany/poplar/mahogany drum with maple rings can. And mahogany, to my ears, has a much lower fundamental than maple does, although, granted, far less punch. I think the rings raise the tone--the rings on my 15" Ludwig maple cocktail would support that. I've had a very tough time getting a nice bass tone. I also struggle with getting a satisfactory pitch out of my 22x14" Slingerland bass drum. Paradoxically, my wife's 60's ZimGar 20x14" is one of the most beautiful bass drums I've heard, despite the fact that it is very low quality mahogany with no reinforcement rings. The tone is low and full-bodied in a way my much nicer Slingerland can never accomplish.
In moments of frustration, I've tried giving up on the snare side of the cocktail set to make a tom instead. I can't get the top head tuned low enough to make a convincing floor tom, and I blame that mainly on the reinforcement rings in the top, middle, and bottom of the drum.
With my ring discussion, there is another variable I ignored--bearing edges. What do you guys think would be the ideal cocktail edge--45, 45 countercut, 30, or roundish?
By the way, I just built a custom Ludwig set out of some old marching drums our school's band teacher gave me. The bass is a 26x12, the floor tom was a 15x12 marching snare, and the tom tom is my 10x8 Keller shell with Ludwig hardware that doubles as my cocktail tom. The set is all silver sparkle, so my cocktail is ultimately going to match. I love that set, and I'm surprised at how well the 26 works for traditional jazz--size doesn't have to mean volume, I've found. I always wondered about those 20's dixieland drummers with 28" drums--now I get it.
A question I've started to wonder about--has anyone tried turning a cocktail set into a conventional bass drum? My toms would be decent for bop if I had a small bass drum. At any rate, I might one day go for a 20x16 if I find one--that size would work really well with this set--10/15/20, all in depths which are about 75% of the diameter.
Will
I always thought reinforcement rings kicked the pitch of a drum up, not down. The drums I have without reinforcement rings are capable of much lower fundamental tones than the ones with. My 10x8" maple tom without rings can get a stronger tone at a lower pitch than my 13x9" Slingerland 3 ply mahogany/poplar/mahogany drum with maple rings can. And mahogany, to my ears, has a much lower fundamental than maple does, although, granted, far less punch. I think the rings raise the tone--the rings on my 15" Ludwig maple cocktail would support that. I've had a very tough time getting a nice bass tone. I also struggle with getting a satisfactory pitch out of my 22x14" Slingerland bass drum. Paradoxically, my wife's 60's ZimGar 20x14" is one of the most beautiful bass drums I've heard, despite the fact that it is very low quality mahogany with no reinforcement rings. The tone is low and full-bodied in a way my much nicer Slingerland can never accomplish.
In moments of frustration, I've tried giving up on the snare side of the cocktail set to make a tom instead. I can't get the top head tuned low enough to make a convincing floor tom, and I blame that mainly on the reinforcement rings in the top, middle, and bottom of the drum.
With my ring discussion, there is another variable I ignored--bearing edges. What do you guys think would be the ideal cocktail edge--45, 45 countercut, 30, or roundish?
By the way, I just built a custom Ludwig set out of some old marching drums our school's band teacher gave me. The bass is a 26x12, the floor tom was a 15x12 marching snare, and the tom tom is my 10x8 Keller shell with Ludwig hardware that doubles as my cocktail tom. The set is all silver sparkle, so my cocktail is ultimately going to match. I love that set, and I'm surprised at how well the 26 works for traditional jazz--size doesn't have to mean volume, I've found. I always wondered about those 20's dixieland drummers with 28" drums--now I get it.
A question I've started to wonder about--has anyone tried turning a cocktail set into a conventional bass drum? My toms would be decent for bop if I had a small bass drum. At any rate, I might one day go for a 20x16 if I find one--that size would work really well with this set--10/15/20, all in depths which are about 75% of the diameter.
Will
-
fw
one other thing
I forgot--If I were going to build a cocktail set from the ground up, I'd try to find a manufacturer who could make a Trixon Telstar shaped shell--24" tall, 18" on the bass drum diameter, and 13" on the top with a really good baffle--maybe a soft plastic cone stuffed with foam. Then I'd make the tom 12" on the top and 10" on the bottom.
-
palacki808
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2003 10:50 am
- Contact:
slightly off topic
being slightly off topic, before I started playing a cocktail I used a hipgig set. The kick drum is 16" diaX20" deep. It really has a nice tight punch to it. I assume a 16" cocktail drum converted to a standard bass would sound just as nice.
Just wondering why you would want to do that though?
Just wondering why you would want to do that though?
Whole lot of info. Here my take on reinforcement rings after may years of playing both with and with out rings and doing live sound reinforcement. I find that with the ring you get a more focused sound. What I mean is clarity wise I've found that a tom hit does not ring off so insane that it causes a type of tone distortion, I find this extra distortion takes away from the good qualities in the tone by adding in other harmonics. It personally drives me crazy to play on a kit without the reinforcement ring, some are worse that others. Good for making Led Zep tones but we all play different styles than that. I've also found that kits with the ring require less tuning, less frequent head changes and tune up easier. Even with destroyed heads A/B I've always found that kits with rings can pull off the gig sounding passable as opposed to complete crap. I wouldn't say that one gets less ring (in terms of time a tom note is heard) with rings so in terms of toms with and without rings, good quality will always give a lengthy note. Pitch may be tuned up but with more control (focus) in the sound one is able to tune down and get a desirable sound with out the undesirable wondering tones.
This is only my opinion and I really can not complain about any of my kits with the rings, while my other kits without have either been sold or collect dust.
As for the Trixon I've often thought that would be an interesting thing for the cocktail kit. We thing alike.
As for bearing edges, I've been happy with the double 45 but I would like to play around with a rounded edge like the Ludwig drums of old. Those drums just had such a warm personallity.
I'm also putting wood rims on these babies like the Ayottes not the Yamahas
Anyway good food for thought keep up the ideas.
Dinkus
This is only my opinion and I really can not complain about any of my kits with the rings, while my other kits without have either been sold or collect dust.
As for the Trixon I've often thought that would be an interesting thing for the cocktail kit. We thing alike.
As for bearing edges, I've been happy with the double 45 but I would like to play around with a rounded edge like the Ludwig drums of old. Those drums just had such a warm personallity.
I'm also putting wood rims on these babies like the Ayottes not the Yamahas
Anyway good food for thought keep up the ideas.
Dinkus
-
fw
rings
Okay, I'm with you on the rings--my Slingerland set is incredibly easy to tune, and it never sounds bad, even with beater heads. My Keller tom and my Ludwig floor tom don't have rings, and while I get a tone I prefer to the tone of my Slingerlands, I only get it after days of tuning, and even then, a bit of playing makes them need re-tuning. I like that my Slingerlands have a bit of "fudge room"--they don't have one ideal tuning, but rather a wide zone of decent tone. The thing is, with my ringless maple drums, I have to suffer through a lot of unusable tones, but when I find the ever-elusive usable tone, it is amazingly beautiful---the drums just sing. The Slingerlands seem like my 97" taurus wagon--really practicle, a good amount of pep, dependable in any situation. The new Ludwig set I built is more like my 66 Impala--more limits to its usefulness, unsafe for long journeys, harder to steer, and in constant need of tuning, but when it's in prime shape, damn! Power, beauty, and grace.
One thing I've noticed about control rings--they allow more of a difference between the tuning of the top head and bottom head. I find that I can do almost anything with the top head or the bottom head and get good, usable tones from my Slingerlands. The Ludwig/Keller set really requires the top and bottom heads to be in sync with each other.
I still can't wrap my head around what would be best for a cocktail set--I think you might have won me over to the control ring idea, at least for the bottom head. What does the Club Jordan have?
Also, about the question of turning the cocktail drum into a bass drum--I don't want to stop using the cocktail set--the idea is for super-compact gigs, I've got the cocktail, for small gigs that require a full set, I'd have a compact set with a 15x22" bass, and for loud gigs that need a full set, I'd have the 10/15/26 arrangement. That's three very different sets out of five drums.
Will
One thing I've noticed about control rings--they allow more of a difference between the tuning of the top head and bottom head. I find that I can do almost anything with the top head or the bottom head and get good, usable tones from my Slingerlands. The Ludwig/Keller set really requires the top and bottom heads to be in sync with each other.
I still can't wrap my head around what would be best for a cocktail set--I think you might have won me over to the control ring idea, at least for the bottom head. What does the Club Jordan have?
Also, about the question of turning the cocktail drum into a bass drum--I don't want to stop using the cocktail set--the idea is for super-compact gigs, I've got the cocktail, for small gigs that require a full set, I'd have a compact set with a 15x22" bass, and for loud gigs that need a full set, I'd have the 10/15/26 arrangement. That's three very different sets out of five drums.
Will
Well I've ordered my shell from AIT today, I tried Precision but they only had 10 ply not 6 ply. The other bummer, not huge just personal preferance is that the woold rims will not be hide a head, I could get them made but at $60.00 a rim I sided against it. I did have AIT shave the 1 1/2" rims to 1"1/4, I hope they remember to do it. I was going to really load up on shells today but my woman side tracked me, I already dumped a ton on a Road Star bike so I really can't bitch and she wants new cupboard, besides I'm still adding to my arsonal of toys one by one. As to answer the question, Club Jordons do not have reinforcement rings. I still think you get good value for your buck for the Jordon, you just need to put in time to get it to straighten up and fly right, depending on your gig. I really dug the sound it gave without any dampening from the player perspective but from the Mic. perspective it was not so good for my application. Kick and Snare sound too much the same.
Dinkus
Dinkus
-
mangorockfish
- Posts: 182
- Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:23 pm
- Location: arkansas
Shell Size
Hey Dink,
Are AIT shells 6ply and are the Kellers 10? Mine is a Keller and I finally got the bass to sounding good tonight.
Are AIT shells 6ply and are the Kellers 10? Mine is a Keller and I finally got the bass to sounding good tonight.
I believe that AIT uses keller also its just that Precision Drum only had 10 ply in stock and i wanted to go with a maximum of 6 ply so by default AIT won. I've had good luck with Precision in previous orders so hopefully AIT will be as good. Prices were mostly the same. Shipping to Canada might kill me though. Oh well, all for the pursuit of a killer Cocktail and I don't mean drink.
Dinkus
Dinkus