When you guys just use the main drum on a gig and turn the snares on, do you use sticks or just use brushes? When I turn my snares on and use sticks, it sounds TERRIBLE. It sounds just like what it is : a few wires touching the bottom head. I mean that there is no crack or pop there. Tell me what I'm doing wrong.
Mango'
The Main Drum As A Snare
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mangorockfish
- Posts: 182
- Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:23 pm
- Location: arkansas
Mango, I use stick for the majority of the night and blastics and brushes on some songs. With my club Jordan, I can get a fairly decent rock sound depending on taking moon gel off and turning the external snare off. With the custom Cocktail I built, I can't get the rock snare ring out of it due to my snare strainer set up but I get a really fat snare sound out of it. I'm not sure what you doing wrong. Could it be that you've cranked the strainer too much causing the snare ends to rattle and sound like crap. I learned that the hard way. If it's too tight loosen the strainer. CRANK, CRANK CRANK the head. Put some dampening for the kick but leave enough depth so that snare has some body. Head choice is personal but try a single ply head on the snare side. The thinner the better for snare respone. I use a Remo Ambas. however I believe that Aquarian's film for their heads are a little thinner. It may be worth a try.
Here is how my Club Jordan sounds. This works great for me as a Kick, Snare combo.
http://www.angelfire.com/music/dinkus/c ... ounds.html
Here is how my Club Jordan sounds. This works great for me as a Kick, Snare combo.
http://www.angelfire.com/music/dinkus/c ... ounds.html
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fw
I concur with Dinkus.
I don't think a main-drum cocktail snare can have a fat tone AND sustain. The nature of the snare fan is to accidently muffle the top head. If you crank the head, you can get the kind of sustain that comes from a timbale-like sound, which is basically ring. If you want a fat sound, a medium-tensioned head will end up sounding like a tenor drum, not a medium-loose tensioned snare.
Dinkus is totally right about the snare fan--if you over tighten it, at some point, the ends of the snare wires will bend away from the head, and you'll get an ugly scraping slapback sound, not a pleasing buzz. You also, obviously, won't get a tight sound that maybe you'd be going for by trying to crank the head. Having the snares too loose will also sound like butt--like my CB700 snare used to sound when I turned the snares off and they didn't leave the head entirely.
You could take the bass drum head off the drum and experiment with tensioning the snares that way--you'd be able to see if the ends of the snares are matched properly with the surface of the head.
With a tight head and the snare fan adjusted to the point that the ends of the snares rest parallel against the head, you should be in good shape. By the way, the length of your fan might matter. I found 3-4" worked well. 5" or over always got me that ugly slapback sound, it muted the head too much, and the bass drum rattle effect was uncontrollable.
If you want a fat sound once you have the head adjusted the way Dinkus and I recommend, try hitting the head right on top of the snares. I think the head opens up for a bit because the snares bounce off it, and that makes the pitch drop. At least on my drum, it did. I got this sound that was like an 80's electronic hand clap sound. Also, rim shots always sound funky, like a timbale, and the "sweet spot" might be about 3-4" inches off the rim but not on top of the snares if you want just a "normal" snare sound. Also, dead center on the head is very dead, but generally lower in pitch--it will sound like a marching tenor.
I kind of liked fat sticks on my cocktail set--something with some meat at the tip. I think thin sticks usually gave me a thin tone. The tone needs some bulking up. At the same time, I think cocktail drums choke if you hit them too hard. The best bet once you have it tuned well is to find what "regions" of the head give you the best tones, and then figure out what sort of sticks will bring out the best in those regions. The sounds will vary drum by drum and drummer by drummer--hotrods always sound like garbage in my hands, for instance.
Also, I never got to try it on my drum, but I think John's idea of a coated diplomat snare head is genius. You should pick up sensitivity and even the illusion of fatness. I think even medium-weight heads choke out at the kind of tension cocktail heads require.
The final thing that always messed me up with my cocktail set is that the drummer has to change. You just can't play it like it's a drumset. Watch the videos of John playing--he plays like he was born to play a cocktail set, and I think his physical and stylistic approach to playing his set is probably 70% of the reason his cocktail set sounds so cool. For every problem I corrected in terms of tone on my cocktail set, I found three that I needed to correct in terms of my approach to the cocktail set. I found problems with my hands, problems with my concept, problems with my self-image and sense of security--and dealing with all of these made me a better drum set player. I don't think being a set player and switching to cocktail is a matter of standing up and playing fewer drums--it's probably more like playing bass after years of only playing drums. They are radically different instruments and the delusion that they are the same is where most of my frustration came from. I had the most fun and the best sound out of my cocktail set when I stopped trying to make it a metaphor for my traps and just let it be what it was. If you treat it like a real set, you'll freak because your snare doesn't sound like a snare, your bass doesn't sound like your bass, your hi hat technique is shot, and your 4-way co-ordination that made you a cool drumset player is useless--there is no way to express it, and now your hands are naked, your foot is slow, your back hurts, and you realize you never practiced looking cool standing up and desperately wish you had sunglasses on or some cymbals to hide behind.
Don't try to imagine what you want the set to sound like, because that metaphor comes from your other set. I think you'll know when you've found the right heads, tunings, muffling techiniques, snare fan adjustments, and all that stuff when the instrument stops being a wannabe drumset and starts being a source of new ideas, sounds, and experimentation. The cocktail drum won't fit your headspace--you'll fit its headspace.
Will
I don't think a main-drum cocktail snare can have a fat tone AND sustain. The nature of the snare fan is to accidently muffle the top head. If you crank the head, you can get the kind of sustain that comes from a timbale-like sound, which is basically ring. If you want a fat sound, a medium-tensioned head will end up sounding like a tenor drum, not a medium-loose tensioned snare.
Dinkus is totally right about the snare fan--if you over tighten it, at some point, the ends of the snare wires will bend away from the head, and you'll get an ugly scraping slapback sound, not a pleasing buzz. You also, obviously, won't get a tight sound that maybe you'd be going for by trying to crank the head. Having the snares too loose will also sound like butt--like my CB700 snare used to sound when I turned the snares off and they didn't leave the head entirely.
You could take the bass drum head off the drum and experiment with tensioning the snares that way--you'd be able to see if the ends of the snares are matched properly with the surface of the head.
With a tight head and the snare fan adjusted to the point that the ends of the snares rest parallel against the head, you should be in good shape. By the way, the length of your fan might matter. I found 3-4" worked well. 5" or over always got me that ugly slapback sound, it muted the head too much, and the bass drum rattle effect was uncontrollable.
If you want a fat sound once you have the head adjusted the way Dinkus and I recommend, try hitting the head right on top of the snares. I think the head opens up for a bit because the snares bounce off it, and that makes the pitch drop. At least on my drum, it did. I got this sound that was like an 80's electronic hand clap sound. Also, rim shots always sound funky, like a timbale, and the "sweet spot" might be about 3-4" inches off the rim but not on top of the snares if you want just a "normal" snare sound. Also, dead center on the head is very dead, but generally lower in pitch--it will sound like a marching tenor.
I kind of liked fat sticks on my cocktail set--something with some meat at the tip. I think thin sticks usually gave me a thin tone. The tone needs some bulking up. At the same time, I think cocktail drums choke if you hit them too hard. The best bet once you have it tuned well is to find what "regions" of the head give you the best tones, and then figure out what sort of sticks will bring out the best in those regions. The sounds will vary drum by drum and drummer by drummer--hotrods always sound like garbage in my hands, for instance.
Also, I never got to try it on my drum, but I think John's idea of a coated diplomat snare head is genius. You should pick up sensitivity and even the illusion of fatness. I think even medium-weight heads choke out at the kind of tension cocktail heads require.
The final thing that always messed me up with my cocktail set is that the drummer has to change. You just can't play it like it's a drumset. Watch the videos of John playing--he plays like he was born to play a cocktail set, and I think his physical and stylistic approach to playing his set is probably 70% of the reason his cocktail set sounds so cool. For every problem I corrected in terms of tone on my cocktail set, I found three that I needed to correct in terms of my approach to the cocktail set. I found problems with my hands, problems with my concept, problems with my self-image and sense of security--and dealing with all of these made me a better drum set player. I don't think being a set player and switching to cocktail is a matter of standing up and playing fewer drums--it's probably more like playing bass after years of only playing drums. They are radically different instruments and the delusion that they are the same is where most of my frustration came from. I had the most fun and the best sound out of my cocktail set when I stopped trying to make it a metaphor for my traps and just let it be what it was. If you treat it like a real set, you'll freak because your snare doesn't sound like a snare, your bass doesn't sound like your bass, your hi hat technique is shot, and your 4-way co-ordination that made you a cool drumset player is useless--there is no way to express it, and now your hands are naked, your foot is slow, your back hurts, and you realize you never practiced looking cool standing up and desperately wish you had sunglasses on or some cymbals to hide behind.
Don't try to imagine what you want the set to sound like, because that metaphor comes from your other set. I think you'll know when you've found the right heads, tunings, muffling techiniques, snare fan adjustments, and all that stuff when the instrument stops being a wannabe drumset and starts being a source of new ideas, sounds, and experimentation. The cocktail drum won't fit your headspace--you'll fit its headspace.
Will
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palacki808
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2003 10:50 am
- Contact:
wow
Wow Will, that is one heck of a post. I have never looked at it like that. I spent ALOT of time reading posts here and trying different tunings and adjusting those snares. I knew it wasn't going to sound like a typical bass and snare but my technique, approach or attitude never once changed. I simply just started cranking tension rods and knobs looking for a sound and it took me a long time to find that sound. Maybe if I had just allowed my approach or my attitude towards the instrument to change along with the tuning I would have found that sound faster.
That's what makes this forum so cool. There's always something here we can all learn from.
-Joe
That's what makes this forum so cool. There's always something here we can all learn from.
-Joe
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fw
Praise from Caesars! Wow. Thanks Joe and Peter!
Peter--you are the god of esoteric approaches to drums and drumming. I feel unworthy.
All this talk about cocktail sets has got me scheming up new designs. I wish I knew how to work with fiberglass. Cocktail drumming really helped my set playing in strange ways. In some ways my set has gotten bigger, and in some, smaller. I don't play cymbals that I can't use several ways anymore, but I also play cymbals that aren't products of the sounds I've always heard in my head. I don't really use crash cymbals anymore, but I'm using two traditional chinas--a 14 and a 21", and I ride on them more than I crash. I also am using two snare drums to simulate the variety of snare sounds I used to get from my cocktail set, and I'm more comfortable playing out of my element, like with 17" hi hats and a 26"x10" bass drum, which I tend to play quietly, not Bonham-like. I feel like my double stroke rolls are better than ever, too, and even though I'm playing a bit too busy these days, I'm starting to really enjoy laying back and trying to pull interesting tones from the drums and cymbals. So I feel like what all of you taught me about cocktail drumming has put me in the head space to embrace strangeness and to hear with new ears--to let the instruments shape me instead of vice versa.
Thanks to everyone.
Will
Will
Peter--you are the god of esoteric approaches to drums and drumming. I feel unworthy.
All this talk about cocktail sets has got me scheming up new designs. I wish I knew how to work with fiberglass. Cocktail drumming really helped my set playing in strange ways. In some ways my set has gotten bigger, and in some, smaller. I don't play cymbals that I can't use several ways anymore, but I also play cymbals that aren't products of the sounds I've always heard in my head. I don't really use crash cymbals anymore, but I'm using two traditional chinas--a 14 and a 21", and I ride on them more than I crash. I also am using two snare drums to simulate the variety of snare sounds I used to get from my cocktail set, and I'm more comfortable playing out of my element, like with 17" hi hats and a 26"x10" bass drum, which I tend to play quietly, not Bonham-like. I feel like my double stroke rolls are better than ever, too, and even though I'm playing a bit too busy these days, I'm starting to really enjoy laying back and trying to pull interesting tones from the drums and cymbals. So I feel like what all of you taught me about cocktail drumming has put me in the head space to embrace strangeness and to hear with new ears--to let the instruments shape me instead of vice versa.
Thanks to everyone.
Will
Will
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Guest
Hey!Will!fw wrote:Praise from Caesars! Wow. Thanks Joe and Peter!
Peter--you are the god of esoteric approaches to drums and drumming. I feel unworthy.
All this talk about cocktail sets has got me scheming up new designs. I wish I knew how to work with fiberglass. Cocktail drumming really helped my set playing in strange ways. In some ways my set has gotten bigger, and in some, smaller. I don't play cymbals that I can't use several ways anymore, but I also play cymbals that aren't products of the sounds I've always heard in my head. I don't really use crash cymbals anymore, but I'm using two traditional chinas--a 14 and a 21", and I ride on them more than I crash. I also am using two snare drums to simulate the variety of snare sounds I used to get from my cocktail set, and I'm more comfortable playing out of my element, like with 17" hi hats and a 26"x10" bass drum, which I tend to play quietly, not Bonham-like. I feel like my double stroke rolls are better than ever, too, and even though I'm playing a bit too busy these days, I'm starting to really enjoy laying back and trying to pull interesting tones from the drums and cymbals. So I feel like what all of you taught me about cocktail drumming has put me in the head space to embrace strangeness and to hear with new ears--to let the instruments shape me instead of vice versa.
Thanks to everyone.
Will
Will
Thanks for your kind words!Infact,I learn from everybody here too.....!!!
Ya!Talking about Fiberglass,I have the same thing too.I had visited my Boat making friend few times.Trying to get more information how to do it!well!it seems like very "Tough". 
Check out this Canadian drum maker. He's been doing fibeglass for some time. Might be worth a shot.
http://www.tempusdrums.com/lndex.html
Dinkus
http://www.tempusdrums.com/lndex.html
Dinkus
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mangorockfish
- Posts: 182
- Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:23 pm
- Location: arkansas
Sound
Hi Will,
Well, I have to throw in my praise for your amazing text! And thanks for the kind words. I may have to make a page of 'Best Posts' from the forum!
Will is spot on about the approaches to sound and playing. I have a background in classical percussion as well as kit drumming which I think really helps. I always feel like playing Cocktail Drum is a real mix between the two.
You need the mental vision of what the sounds are, and the techniques to make it happen comfortably in a tight space. It can take quite a while to put it all together and still sometimes I really feel like I'm split in half, focusing on the two elements seprately and just watching it come out somehow.
Playing in a much smaller space than a full kit your arms can't move as much and the distances between drums/cymbals/percussion are much closer. On my kit I have tiny toy bongos that require very precise hits. As a result I find I use my fingers and wrists a lot more for hits AND movement between instruments. I try and keep my arms loose and often use my arms to hang my hands from and keep things lighter rather than using my arms to throw my hands at the drums (I hope that makes some kind of sense).
Of course this is all from my perspective for my particular kit. Everyone's method is different which is what makes this whole thing so darn interesting!
- John
Well, I have to throw in my praise for your amazing text! And thanks for the kind words. I may have to make a page of 'Best Posts' from the forum!
Will is spot on about the approaches to sound and playing. I have a background in classical percussion as well as kit drumming which I think really helps. I always feel like playing Cocktail Drum is a real mix between the two.
You need the mental vision of what the sounds are, and the techniques to make it happen comfortably in a tight space. It can take quite a while to put it all together and still sometimes I really feel like I'm split in half, focusing on the two elements seprately and just watching it come out somehow.
Playing in a much smaller space than a full kit your arms can't move as much and the distances between drums/cymbals/percussion are much closer. On my kit I have tiny toy bongos that require very precise hits. As a result I find I use my fingers and wrists a lot more for hits AND movement between instruments. I try and keep my arms loose and often use my arms to hang my hands from and keep things lighter rather than using my arms to throw my hands at the drums (I hope that makes some kind of sense).
Of course this is all from my perspective for my particular kit. Everyone's method is different which is what makes this whole thing so darn interesting!
- John