I have a 24x14 maple drum that serves as kick/tom and I've achieved a few different distinct sounds, but am serching for yet another one - one that provides a deep punch at the pedal and a round tone from the top. I've found in general that detuning the bottom from the top too much comprimises the sustain of the tom sound.
I have had great results using a pinstripe on the bottom with an attack pad as well as a strip of weatherstripping applied in a similar fashion to a felt strip. Top head is either a coated ambassador, coated pinstripe, or (currently) a coated Evans G1 reverse dot.
I've also added a few loose cotton balls inside the drum for further thud - though I find the addtional cotton balls adversely affect the response at the top head.
For those of us who are using the main drum in the kit as a kick/tom, what approaches are workiing for getting a great kick sound (mic'd or not) and a great tom sound?
tuning that big drum for kick & tom...
Thought I might open this topic again...
How are you cocktailers tuning the big drum when used as a kick/tom?
What's heads are good for what tuning arrangement? What are some good muffling (or not) techniques? What's relative tension between the 2 heads gives good results? What beaters hellp to get best results from your tuning? Port the shell or not?
Input appreciated!
How are you cocktailers tuning the big drum when used as a kick/tom?
What's heads are good for what tuning arrangement? What are some good muffling (or not) techniques? What's relative tension between the 2 heads gives good results? What beaters hellp to get best results from your tuning? Port the shell or not?
Input appreciated!
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mangorockfish
- Posts: 182
- Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:23 pm
- Location: arkansas
thanks Mango.
So are you getting very distinct sounds from the top (tom) and the bottom (kick)? Or are they similar....or is this somewhat irrelevant if your big drum is also a snare...
I'm searching for a new tuning/head combination that will optimize both tom and kick sounds. The tuning combination that's working for me is with a low-ish similar same pitch on top and bottom. I also need to get off the head with the pedal beater to retain some tone.
Any other thoughts on getting 2 distinctive and usable tones from the same drum?
So are you getting very distinct sounds from the top (tom) and the bottom (kick)? Or are they similar....or is this somewhat irrelevant if your big drum is also a snare...
I'm searching for a new tuning/head combination that will optimize both tom and kick sounds. The tuning combination that's working for me is with a low-ish similar same pitch on top and bottom. I also need to get off the head with the pedal beater to retain some tone.
Any other thoughts on getting 2 distinctive and usable tones from the same drum?
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mangorockfish
- Posts: 182
- Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:23 pm
- Location: arkansas
A couple of weeks ago when we played, I setup and started playing. Couldn't tune as announcments were going on and such. I forgot that I had the top head tuned high for a snare sound. I was using my side snare, so I flipped the snares off big drum and detuned by feel. Never got a good tom sound, but the bass sound was fantastic. Sounded just like a low 18" ora high tuned 20" bass drum when mixed with the piano and bass.
The chick singer really dug the look and sound of it too.
The chick singer really dug the look and sound of it too.
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Pat McNeil
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:20 pm
re: Tuning the big drum.
I use my Star (16 x24) as kick/tom as well. The bottom head is a pinstripe, with one of those "falam slam" patches on it. I also have a strip of "polar fleece" type material that runs across the centre of the drum - it's about 2 inches thick. I found I was able to get an excellent kick sound this way.
For a long time I wasn't happy with the tom sound. I had tuned it quite low, and it gave a nice "boom" off the kick, but the tom hit was very indistinct and unfocused. Recently I tuned it considerably higher & that solved the problem. Interestingly, the kick sound is still good, but just slightly different now. I think it is because I tuned the top to a harmonic of the bottom. If you want more info, I can check for you.
Pat
I use my Star (16 x24) as kick/tom as well. The bottom head is a pinstripe, with one of those "falam slam" patches on it. I also have a strip of "polar fleece" type material that runs across the centre of the drum - it's about 2 inches thick. I found I was able to get an excellent kick sound this way.
For a long time I wasn't happy with the tom sound. I had tuned it quite low, and it gave a nice "boom" off the kick, but the tom hit was very indistinct and unfocused. Recently I tuned it considerably higher & that solved the problem. Interestingly, the kick sound is still good, but just slightly different now. I think it is because I tuned the top to a harmonic of the bottom. If you want more info, I can check for you.
Pat
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Pat McNeil
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:20 pm
Hi Multiperc -
OK, my top head is a coated ambassador. I used to have an Evans G1, but I really didn't like it for reasons not entirely clear to me.
It's funny because I've heard the Evans on other drums & liked them, but this particular drum seems to enjoy only ambassadors.
I just checked the tuning now - top head is actually an 8ve higher than the kick tone, which makes it kinda high for a 16" tom. The kick seems much deeper than it is because I think the strip of polar fleece is eliminating most of the overtones from it. It is almost "unpitched".
I think before I was working with the mental idea that the tom should sound like it looked - i.e. like a deep floor tom. Now it's much higher pitched & the whole thing seems happier.
If I think about it acoustically, this makes sense from a standing wave point of view. Since the octave's the 1st harmonic, it resonates with the kick sound & doesn't interfere much. An interval like a 6th with be more unstable.
It's a higher sound that I'd expect for a drum this size, but it seems to be working OK.
I know *very little* about drum tuning, but I've got a good ear for pitch. I just experimented until I found this.
Hope it helps - don't hesitate to ask for more info if you need it.
Pat
OK, my top head is a coated ambassador. I used to have an Evans G1, but I really didn't like it for reasons not entirely clear to me.
It's funny because I've heard the Evans on other drums & liked them, but this particular drum seems to enjoy only ambassadors. I just checked the tuning now - top head is actually an 8ve higher than the kick tone, which makes it kinda high for a 16" tom. The kick seems much deeper than it is because I think the strip of polar fleece is eliminating most of the overtones from it. It is almost "unpitched".
I think before I was working with the mental idea that the tom should sound like it looked - i.e. like a deep floor tom. Now it's much higher pitched & the whole thing seems happier.
If I think about it acoustically, this makes sense from a standing wave point of view. Since the octave's the 1st harmonic, it resonates with the kick sound & doesn't interfere much. An interval like a 6th with be more unstable.
It's a higher sound that I'd expect for a drum this size, but it seems to be working OK.
I know *very little* about drum tuning, but I've got a good ear for pitch. I just experimented until I found this.
Hope it helps - don't hesitate to ask for more info if you need it.
Pat
Hi
The homemade main drum on my setup is a 16x26. I glued an old slingerland
floor tom together with what I needed from a pearl floor tom. ( I rubbed flat the support
ring to match the 9mm pearltom. I araldited it. It has worked now for 2 years, going in and out of aeroplanes, moist-dripping storage rooms, our practise lot is a basement, it s been over greenland. IT HOLDS. I could have baptised it in beer, but never thought of it at the time. Anyway, we were a bit dissapointed with the way we could not distinguish the top from the bass. Untill I thought of putting (back)on the original Slingerland tone control>damper<to the top. It seems, that stopping the top from ringing along also adds some box, food, volume, have it Your way, to the bass. And using the coated head on the top adds quite a bit of attack to the top, while I use a powerstroke3 with a falamslam on the bass. (The snare is on the side, mounted to a leg bracket, You need an s<z>rod
to attatch th e snare)I have just glued together 3 12" pearl export toms, actually since the16x26 gets too loud for some showcases. Yes I am a whatchamacallit........I hope to
post some pictures once I get to read the manual of the damn thing
The homemade main drum on my setup is a 16x26. I glued an old slingerland
floor tom together with what I needed from a pearl floor tom. ( I rubbed flat the support
ring to match the 9mm pearltom. I araldited it. It has worked now for 2 years, going in and out of aeroplanes, moist-dripping storage rooms, our practise lot is a basement, it s been over greenland. IT HOLDS. I could have baptised it in beer, but never thought of it at the time. Anyway, we were a bit dissapointed with the way we could not distinguish the top from the bass. Untill I thought of putting (back)on the original Slingerland tone control>damper<to the top. It seems, that stopping the top from ringing along also adds some box, food, volume, have it Your way, to the bass. And using the coated head on the top adds quite a bit of attack to the top, while I use a powerstroke3 with a falamslam on the bass. (The snare is on the side, mounted to a leg bracket, You need an s<z>rod
to attatch th e snare)I have just glued together 3 12" pearl export toms, actually since the16x26 gets too loud for some showcases. Yes I am a whatchamacallit........I hope to
post some pictures once I get to read the manual of the damn thing
Hey Pat
Thanks for your detailed input on this - I will try tuning intervals and agree that a simple harmonic relationship can help tone of both. My drum is 24x14 and I may not get the same results as you get with a 16" diameter shell and heads.
I probably noted that I've been tuning both similarly but have used different heads and muffling to differentiate playing on top and bottom. It actually works rather well, but I am hoping I can find some additonal sound possibilities. Will let you know what I find.
Thanks for your detailed input on this - I will try tuning intervals and agree that a simple harmonic relationship can help tone of both. My drum is 24x14 and I may not get the same results as you get with a 16" diameter shell and heads.
I probably noted that I've been tuning both similarly but have used different heads and muffling to differentiate playing on top and bottom. It actually works rather well, but I am hoping I can find some additonal sound possibilities. Will let you know what I find.
Pat
back to you on tuning...
having an ear for picth and understanding basics of the overtone series are important elements of drum tuning, no doubt! I've been trying alternatives to my fully-resonant (close pitch top-bottom) big drum and found that by tuning the kik head to its lowest discernable pitch and then tuning the top batter roughly an octave above accomplishes some things. Namely, the interaction between the 2 heads is minimized (probably to the fundamental and first harmonic) which helps distinguish the sounds of top and bottom. Further muffling the kick yields a dead (but somewhat thin) attack leaving the top head to be it's own thing - a high-tuned tom. Further cranking the top head moving away from the octave is probably where top-head-snare function comes in.
It's good to have an alternate tuning at hand. I don't yet have experience with a traidiotnal 'single' cocktail drum (bass & snare) but this tuning approach is probably the basis of that. Thanks for the great input and hope that others can get some relevant knowledge from this.
back to you on tuning...
having an ear for picth and understanding basics of the overtone series are important elements of drum tuning, no doubt! I've been trying alternatives to my fully-resonant (close pitch top-bottom) big drum and found that by tuning the kik head to its lowest discernable pitch and then tuning the top batter roughly an octave above accomplishes some things. Namely, the interaction between the 2 heads is minimized (probably to the fundamental and first harmonic) which helps distinguish the sounds of top and bottom. Further muffling the kick yields a dead (but somewhat thin) attack leaving the top head to be it's own thing - a high-tuned tom. Further cranking the top head moving away from the octave is probably where top-head-snare function comes in.
It's good to have an alternate tuning at hand. I don't yet have experience with a traidiotnal 'single' cocktail drum (bass & snare) but this tuning approach is probably the basis of that. Thanks for the great input and hope that others can get some relevant knowledge from this.
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matthew medeiros
- Posts: 161
- Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 6:43 pm
- Location: Hollister Ca.
- Contact:
two ning
I have been playing dance style drums on a sit down set for quite a few years and recently decided to pull out the old WFL (16X24) out of mothballs to play in situations where the band doesn't have enough room. One thing I noticed on the bass drum sound is that a big, round, softer beater head ( mine is an old lambs wool beater) helps with the bass sound. In other words; you're stricking the top head with a drum stick (obviously) which has a small tip, and so I've found that a bigger, softer beater on the bass drum helps with a rounder?, fuller sound on the bass drum. I play dance rythyms so am probably not hitting the drums as hard(?) as it sounds like all you other guys are hitting. I use a coated ambassador on top & bottom as I have found this seems to be more versatile/adaptable(my own experience) to different room sizes & surfaces. I use an external clip- on- the rim- style muffler on the bottom head, set off the head(not touching) as this seems to give less interferance on the head rebound, and dependimg on the room I use a small half circle of felt that i tape to the top hoop and let rest on the head surface, I don't use anything to force it onto the surface of the drum, as I like a lot of rebound. On the actual tuning I have found that each drum, especially the vintage ones, tends to have to be tunned to themselves (does this make sense?) probably because of manufacturing quality variations, there always seems to be a tuning that works best with each particular drum. Hope this gives some insight!
Matthew
Matthew
Some others here have talked about the virtues of a larger soft (lambswool) beater especially for the round sound it provides for swing and dance applications. My first drumset as a kit was a spectacular hand-me-down vintage (even then in 1970) 1930s RadioKing with calf heads. The drums have all since perished, but I do remember that cushy lambswool beater! Any ideas on where to find one today?
Also describe, if you will, the type of clamp-on muffler you're using.
Thanks
Some others here have talked about the virtues of a larger soft (lambswool) beater especially for the round sound it provides for swing and dance applications. My first drumset as a kit was a spectacular hand-me-down vintage (even then in 1970) 1930s RadioKing with calf heads. The drums have all since perished, but I do remember that cushy lambswool beater! Any ideas on where to find one today?
Also describe, if you will, the type of clamp-on muffler you're using.
Thanks
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mangorockfish
- Posts: 182
- Joined: Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:23 pm
- Location: arkansas
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matthew medeiros
- Posts: 161
- Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2006 6:43 pm
- Location: Hollister Ca.
- Contact:
Mufflers & beater heads
Multiperc, first, I'll answer the clamp on muffler question because it's an easy one. My mufflers are from Midas! No, not really, they are the ones that originally came with my Rogers Memriloc set, they clamp on the hoop, and then they have a small ( 1"-1/2?) dia. felt pad that can be adjusted with a small wing nut. The pad also, has a jointed arm that you can swing in or out from the hoop out a little futher into the drum head. I put one on the bottom head (bass drum) and I dial it just off the head, this way it seems not to interfere with rebound as much. Have you seen these old (late 70's) mufflers? they where painted flat black with a white felt pad. They've held up well over the years.I think Tama came out with a copy some years later, so it seems there should be some of these things around. I could send pics if you haven't seen these things. The Lambs wool beater?? The one I have is still the original from a WFL cocktail drum I have, otherwise, don't know where you could find one,.......although, I did have the good fortune of having an ex girlfriend knit a wool piece that we then sewed onto my bass drum beater (still using it!) that I use on my sit down set. I must qualify here, I think I am definitely looking for some different sounds than some of you guys. Matthew
Matthew