Has anybody experimented with a fan on top (like Dinkus, I'm thinking? I'm thinking Dinkus) vs. traditional internal? With/without baffle? I rigged up an external, and I'm just not buying the sound. I'm cool with rattle, but will I get a significantly different sound w/internal? Or should I just mount my snare and save myself drilling a few more holes?
I'd love to use just the one drum, but I definitely need more response than I'm getting with this rig. I used a 48-strand, didn't fan it, just duct taped it to an external muffler sans felt.
Thinking Dinkus,
Kyle
attn snare scientists
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fw
Check out Keith Cronin's cocktail design. I've been borrowing a lot of his ideas, and they work well. The snare fan is traditional and works well, but I especially like his venting idea. I've cut two 2 1/2" holes in my drum, one about two inches beneath the snare rim and one about four inches above the bass rim, and it dramatically opened up the sound and reduced snare rattle. I think I'm going to add two more. I got the hole cutter for my drill for under $10, but if you go for a bigger hole like Keith has, it'll cost you.
The baffle is a real trick, and I haven't found a way to do it that eliminates snare buzz. I don't think the vintage baffled kits eliminated snare buzz, either. I think you have to do what you can to damp it and vent it, then live with it. Venting has done far more for my drum than baffling, and I've had some pretty intense baffles.
The big thing is that the bottom head moves a ton of air. It's unbelievable how much air shoots out of the 2 1/2" vent I have. The more that air can escape to the the outside, the more the audience will hear the bass and the less the snare head will absorb it. So the baffle, I think, should be made in a way that it absorbs a little but reflects a lot, so that the reflected sound goes out the vent holes. I have had little luck with making a baffle that does that...they almost all pass the air to the top head.
As far as the snare fan goes, my thought is that a cocktail set needs far fewer snares than a conventional snare. On a conventional snare, energy from the top head is transfered to the bottom head, and consequently to the snares. There is substantial energy loss in the process. But if the snares on a cocktail set are right underneath the top head, no energy is lost in moving a second head, so the snares receive far more energy. A 3-4" fan of twenty wires does the trick just fine. I like having the snares touch the top head at a bit of an angle, so that the ends of the snares are flush with the head and the snares toward the bass make about a 120 degree angle. If the snares aren't tight enough against the head, you get too loose a sound. If you go too tight, so that the ends of the snares start bending downward, you get a slapback sound when you hit hard.
I'm looking for a material to finish my drum vents with--some sort of chrome auto trim, or maybe that product called HOLZ for bass drum head holes. Those come in 4" rings for way too much money, but if they can be trimmed down to 2 1/2", they might do the trick.
Good luck!
FW
The baffle is a real trick, and I haven't found a way to do it that eliminates snare buzz. I don't think the vintage baffled kits eliminated snare buzz, either. I think you have to do what you can to damp it and vent it, then live with it. Venting has done far more for my drum than baffling, and I've had some pretty intense baffles.
The big thing is that the bottom head moves a ton of air. It's unbelievable how much air shoots out of the 2 1/2" vent I have. The more that air can escape to the the outside, the more the audience will hear the bass and the less the snare head will absorb it. So the baffle, I think, should be made in a way that it absorbs a little but reflects a lot, so that the reflected sound goes out the vent holes. I have had little luck with making a baffle that does that...they almost all pass the air to the top head.
As far as the snare fan goes, my thought is that a cocktail set needs far fewer snares than a conventional snare. On a conventional snare, energy from the top head is transfered to the bottom head, and consequently to the snares. There is substantial energy loss in the process. But if the snares on a cocktail set are right underneath the top head, no energy is lost in moving a second head, so the snares receive far more energy. A 3-4" fan of twenty wires does the trick just fine. I like having the snares touch the top head at a bit of an angle, so that the ends of the snares are flush with the head and the snares toward the bass make about a 120 degree angle. If the snares aren't tight enough against the head, you get too loose a sound. If you go too tight, so that the ends of the snares start bending downward, you get a slapback sound when you hit hard.
I'm looking for a material to finish my drum vents with--some sort of chrome auto trim, or maybe that product called HOLZ for bass drum head holes. Those come in 4" rings for way too much money, but if they can be trimmed down to 2 1/2", they might do the trick.
Good luck!
FW
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fw
Oh, the other thing--cocktail snares by nature sound different than regular snares. There are usually three distinct zones on the top head with dramatically different sounds. The center is very field-drummy--tight, responsive, and dead. The mid way point of the radius of the drum sounds very open and ringy with lots of sustain--like a snare on a reggae dub track. The edge is very timbale like, and the rim shots just add to that effect. The edges don't seem to make much snare sound, either. Then there are gradations of sound between these three zones, and then you open up another world of sound when you hit right on top of the snares--lots of slap back. Then, the sound of each of the three zones changes depending on how close or far away you are from the snare fan.
You get a much wider range of tone from a cocktail snare than from a regular snare. A good traditional snare gives you the same basic three zones of sound, but the variation between the three zones isn't nearly as marked. There are wild variations from inch to inch on a cocktail set, and a lot of them are just plain ugly until you change the way you hear. A good traditional snare doesn't have a lot of outer-spacy, weird zones. Every part is musical. A good cocktail snare has a few sweet spots that give you a sound like a traditional snare, and then a lot of weird spots that you need to either grow into (which for me is all the fun) or avoid (if you want your cocktail kit to sound like a standard drum kit).
I've noticed that people love to play drum and bass beats on cocktail sets. I think that is a result of what a good cocktail snare is all about. If you get used to what an eccentric thing it is, it's like you have access to dozens of really out there snare sounds--you can sound like you are passing through pitch bend filters, delays, and distortions, all on one drum.
I think it's that wide range of tones that has kept cocktail drums from disappearing. If they were valued primarily for their ability to replicate drumset sounds, they would have disappeared by now. They are a wildly different instrument--strange enigmas. I think about how tabla players can smoke almost any drumset player with two drums and their hands only. People talk about the zen minimalism of one drum that is a bass and a snare--but the minimalism is about having fewer drums, not fewer sounds. There's the challenge.
FW
You get a much wider range of tone from a cocktail snare than from a regular snare. A good traditional snare gives you the same basic three zones of sound, but the variation between the three zones isn't nearly as marked. There are wild variations from inch to inch on a cocktail set, and a lot of them are just plain ugly until you change the way you hear. A good traditional snare doesn't have a lot of outer-spacy, weird zones. Every part is musical. A good cocktail snare has a few sweet spots that give you a sound like a traditional snare, and then a lot of weird spots that you need to either grow into (which for me is all the fun) or avoid (if you want your cocktail kit to sound like a standard drum kit).
I've noticed that people love to play drum and bass beats on cocktail sets. I think that is a result of what a good cocktail snare is all about. If you get used to what an eccentric thing it is, it's like you have access to dozens of really out there snare sounds--you can sound like you are passing through pitch bend filters, delays, and distortions, all on one drum.
I think it's that wide range of tones that has kept cocktail drums from disappearing. If they were valued primarily for their ability to replicate drumset sounds, they would have disappeared by now. They are a wildly different instrument--strange enigmas. I think about how tabla players can smoke almost any drumset player with two drums and their hands only. People talk about the zen minimalism of one drum that is a bass and a snare--but the minimalism is about having fewer drums, not fewer sounds. There's the challenge.
FW
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Bruce (the K)
cocktail snares redux
I want to strongly second FW's point about the difference between regular and cocktail snares. I've owned both a Yamaha Club Jordan and a Peace Manhattan. The Yamaha is a traditional one-drum cocktail kit and it uses a small snare fan (the snares on it are maybe 3 inches long) mounted on a muffler-like piece that can be pressed up against the head with an adjustment knob. That little snare fan gave me plenty of "snarieness" with the head good and tight. The Manhattan has a conventional wooden snare drum with full snares across the bottom.
I also agree that the cocktail snare drum head gives you tremendous variation in sounds compared to the conventional snare drum head. It's cool, it's different, and (I have to admit) I miss it! (even though I love my Manhattan kit.) I'm sure my wife would kill me but I'm thinking seriously of going Kyle's route and making a 24 x 14 single drum to have as an alternative to the Manhattan. If I do, I'm most likely going to just order the snare adjustment piece from Yamaha, although it probably costs a fortune. (I ordered a second cymbal arm for my Club Jordan and it was $100, which seemed a mite high to me.)
Help! I must really be turning into a drummer. All I want to do is buy more drums!
I also agree that the cocktail snare drum head gives you tremendous variation in sounds compared to the conventional snare drum head. It's cool, it's different, and (I have to admit) I miss it! (even though I love my Manhattan kit.) I'm sure my wife would kill me but I'm thinking seriously of going Kyle's route and making a 24 x 14 single drum to have as an alternative to the Manhattan. If I do, I'm most likely going to just order the snare adjustment piece from Yamaha, although it probably costs a fortune. (I ordered a second cymbal arm for my Club Jordan and it was $100, which seemed a mite high to me.)
Help! I must really be turning into a drummer. All I want to do is buy more drums!
Cocktail Snares!
Yes, Excellent Thread!!!
This is why I made this board!! Thanks guys...
fw says:
I think it's that wide range of tones that has kept cocktail drums from disappearing. If they were valued primarily for their ability to replicate drumset sounds, they would have disappeared by now
Let's not forget that Cocktail Drums DID DISAPPEAR!
In the beginning of the 70s Slingerland was the ONLY company still producing them and they stopped by the mid 70s. I don't know of any company that produced them after that until Yamaha reintroduced them with the Club Jordan. I don't remeber the year but I believe it was early to mid 90s. Does anybody remember?
I believe that people did not take them seriously during this period because so much music was about big fat and non varying drum sounds so the poor little cocktail didn't cut it. Now with all of the sampling of old jazz drum tracks, filtering sounds, and peoples acceptance of the character of a rattley loose drum sound, the cocktail drum is BACK!
Viva La Cocktail Drum! : > )
John
This is why I made this board!! Thanks guys...
fw says:
I think it's that wide range of tones that has kept cocktail drums from disappearing. If they were valued primarily for their ability to replicate drumset sounds, they would have disappeared by now
Let's not forget that Cocktail Drums DID DISAPPEAR!
In the beginning of the 70s Slingerland was the ONLY company still producing them and they stopped by the mid 70s. I don't know of any company that produced them after that until Yamaha reintroduced them with the Club Jordan. I don't remeber the year but I believe it was early to mid 90s. Does anybody remember?
I believe that people did not take them seriously during this period because so much music was about big fat and non varying drum sounds so the poor little cocktail didn't cut it. Now with all of the sampling of old jazz drum tracks, filtering sounds, and peoples acceptance of the character of a rattley loose drum sound, the cocktail drum is BACK!
Viva La Cocktail Drum! : > )
John
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fw
Yeah, I thought about that when I wrote that, that about 20 years went by with no cocktail drums being made. But that period didn't make cocktail drum lovers give up--they just hibernated.
There are so many other drum trends that died, and I'm not sure they went into hibernation. Concert toms, my old Remo Legero set, the Remo Mondo drums, the North fiberglass drums (don't you have a set, John?), non-programmable drum machines, analog electronic drums, etc. There are other trends that will probably come back some day--power toms, gigantic drumsets, roto toms, etc. It's hard to think of any drum trend that could be as hip as the cocktail set, though.
Thanks for a great site!
FW
There are so many other drum trends that died, and I'm not sure they went into hibernation. Concert toms, my old Remo Legero set, the Remo Mondo drums, the North fiberglass drums (don't you have a set, John?), non-programmable drum machines, analog electronic drums, etc. There are other trends that will probably come back some day--power toms, gigantic drumsets, roto toms, etc. It's hard to think of any drum trend that could be as hip as the cocktail set, though.
Thanks for a great site!
FW
Here's a link to some Mp3's with the different setups of my Cocktail kit. Please ignore the early morning playing. I hope this will help anyone looking for snare tonality changes.
http://www.angelfire.com/music/dinkus/c ... ounds.html
Dinkus
http://www.angelfire.com/music/dinkus/c ... ounds.html
Dinkus
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kylebronsdon
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Guest
Thanks Kyle for the comments. The top head isn't cranked really tight but probably tighter than lets say a medium tension. I had it actually looser and it was really phat but I noticed that I was playing through the drum so I cranked it up a bit. Either way it sounded not bad. I do have quite a bit of baffle as posted somewhere on here, I may even have pics. Basically its a layer of foam, then a cut up surround of a 14" skin, then another piece of round foam covering the whole skin area, repeat another 1 or 2 times. The foam comes just up to the vent so that some of the kick air can still escape but even more importantly let the snare breath. If I was to build a cocktail I would probably do Like Keith did and vent the kit so to get a less choked sound. I'm not allowed to vent this one cause my better half bought it for me. I think sound wise it's pretty good and live it's surprising how much thump the kick gives without being so thick. Our old guitar player loved it and you could get more Bass guitar sub happening with out all the frequency clutter. Anyway enough babbling, glad you enjoyed.
Dinkus
Dinkus
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kylebronsdon
Well, now I'm starting to realize why there has never been a cocktail snare throw-off. It's because much greater minds than mine must have attempted and failed.
I can say this: the internal snare is superior to the external, both in timbre and (to a less degree, perhaps) rattle. I imagine the sound is because it resonates inside the drum, akin to regular snares being under the drum; and I attribute the somewhat less rattle to the fact that you can really get a good angle to firmly press the strands against the head.
Now, I think there could be something to venting, because I drilled just 3 more small holes to mount the gibraltar part I mentioned in the throw-off thread, and it sounds better still.
I don't mean to be a killjoy, but I'm almost certain this is why our beloved cocktail drum is a mutt among drums -- because it can never truly be a one-drum kit.
Not that I ain't gonna play the thing to death! Watch the gig thread for a weekly Monday in LA...
I can say this: the internal snare is superior to the external, both in timbre and (to a less degree, perhaps) rattle. I imagine the sound is because it resonates inside the drum, akin to regular snares being under the drum; and I attribute the somewhat less rattle to the fact that you can really get a good angle to firmly press the strands against the head.
Now, I think there could be something to venting, because I drilled just 3 more small holes to mount the gibraltar part I mentioned in the throw-off thread, and it sounds better still.
I don't mean to be a killjoy, but I'm almost certain this is why our beloved cocktail drum is a mutt among drums -- because it can never truly be a one-drum kit.
Not that I ain't gonna play the thing to death! Watch the gig thread for a weekly Monday in LA...
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Bruce (the K)
Don't give up, Kyle! If you don't figure it out, nobody will. 
It seems to me (easy to say when I'm not hunched over a workbench with a drum shell that looks like swiss cheese from all the extra drilling) that a combination of the vertical motion of a conventional muffler-style snare broom (snares mounted on a leaf of spring steel that can be moved up or down) and some type of toggle-style handle that moves the whole thing up or down an inch or so would allow you to flip off the snare for a tom sound and flip it back on to its original setting.
Anybody got a brother- (or sister-) in-law who's a mechanical engineer and can design us a custom part? May not be much of a market for it but I'd be willing to pay as much for a home-brewed one as Yamaha charges for their non-throw-off snare assembly for the Club Jordan. (I don't actually know how much that is but Yamaha parts don't come cheap.)
Vive la mutt!
It seems to me (easy to say when I'm not hunched over a workbench with a drum shell that looks like swiss cheese from all the extra drilling) that a combination of the vertical motion of a conventional muffler-style snare broom (snares mounted on a leaf of spring steel that can be moved up or down) and some type of toggle-style handle that moves the whole thing up or down an inch or so would allow you to flip off the snare for a tom sound and flip it back on to its original setting.
Anybody got a brother- (or sister-) in-law who's a mechanical engineer and can design us a custom part? May not be much of a market for it but I'd be willing to pay as much for a home-brewed one as Yamaha charges for their non-throw-off snare assembly for the Club Jordan. (I don't actually know how much that is but Yamaha parts don't come cheap.)
Vive la mutt!
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kylebronsdon
Got throw-off?
Yeah, all that brother- or sister-in-law has to do is tweak the Gibraltar part a little. Real chromed metal would be a good start, followed by a longer post. But they should keep the same footprint because I HAVE THROW-OFF.
I had to file off about a half-inch of threads from the screw, because the threads were catching on the hole. It's still not very smooth -- sometimes I have to give it a little push, but maybe it'll "get in the groove" over time. Also, there's only about two or three turns difference between full snares off and not, so you don't have very much control at all over how much the snares push against the head.
But did I mention I have throw-off? The snare sound seems better to me already, just knowing I have a fully functional three-piece in one drum.
Viva zen drumming!
I had to file off about a half-inch of threads from the screw, because the threads were catching on the hole. It's still not very smooth -- sometimes I have to give it a little push, but maybe it'll "get in the groove" over time. Also, there's only about two or three turns difference between full snares off and not, so you don't have very much control at all over how much the snares push against the head.
But did I mention I have throw-off? The snare sound seems better to me already, just knowing I have a fully functional three-piece in one drum.
Viva zen drumming!
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fw
Dinkus, your set sounds amazing and that hot rod track especially sounds bad ass. I dug the home page, too. Thanks for all the cocktail help!
I noticed you had an spd20 nearby. Have you combined the cocktail set with it ever?
I have an idea for a band I might work on this summer that would play postmodern lounge music, and I was thinking about tricking out my drumkat and doing kind of a hybrid acoustic/electric thing. I usually run a keyboard brain through the kat so I can play bass lines or sound effects, and I have a cheap old yamaha brain for running cheesy drum sounds through triggers, usually with lots of goofball effects on them. I like electronic drum sounds that don't sound like drums.
I've shyed away from that approach so far for a couple reasons. One is I want to finish building my set and getting comfortable with it before I start turning it into some gigantic mess. I also like keeping it simple. I also find I play like a tool when I put too much stuff on my set.
If you've done any hybrid experimentation, though, let me know! That goes for anybody else reading the thread.
Thanks!
FW
I noticed you had an spd20 nearby. Have you combined the cocktail set with it ever?
I have an idea for a band I might work on this summer that would play postmodern lounge music, and I was thinking about tricking out my drumkat and doing kind of a hybrid acoustic/electric thing. I usually run a keyboard brain through the kat so I can play bass lines or sound effects, and I have a cheap old yamaha brain for running cheesy drum sounds through triggers, usually with lots of goofball effects on them. I like electronic drum sounds that don't sound like drums.
I've shyed away from that approach so far for a couple reasons. One is I want to finish building my set and getting comfortable with it before I start turning it into some gigantic mess. I also like keeping it simple. I also find I play like a tool when I put too much stuff on my set.
If you've done any hybrid experimentation, though, let me know! That goes for anybody else reading the thread.
Thanks!
FW