Customizing my cocktail style kit - need a little help
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SJB05
Customizing my cocktail style kit - need a little help
Hows it going all. Im shelling out a little cash building a micro/cocktail kit. I've started with a tama rockstar 16x16, have a dw 5000 on the way, but i wanted to know if any of you guys could answer a few questions i have - you are obiously more experienced customizing this stuff. First, Im planning on using Kyle Bronsdon's gibraltar muffler thowoff for the snares - how can i eliminate some of the sympathetic head interaction when it happens? Im going to dampen the whole thing with a blanket or pillow or something, but Im trying to tune the top head of the floor tom lower than the bottom (bass) head, so i cant have any interaction when the top head is used as a snare, or it'll be all off and weird sounding. Also, does anybody have any info or a picture of the carlton parallel internal snare assembly mentioned in the article on the "willoughby cocktail" on this site? Seems like an answer to my question. Any help is appreciated
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fw
I tried setting up a 16x 16 bass/floor tom combo today with a snare, hi hat, and cymbal. I got a decent bass drum sound, but I was surprised how difficult it is to get a decent floor tom sound. I basically put a 12x12" square of soundproofing foam on the bottom head and let it float. It would bounce when I hit the drum with my reverse foot pedal and fall to give the drum punch. Like I said, that worked, but the top head sounded like sub-ass. The absolute best tone I could get was a completely flat, detuned 70's cardboard sound (think those fills in the three's company theme song). The nice part was that I had a separate snare, so I got a very nice snare tone. I'm starting to wonder with a two drum set up if there is really a way to get a good balance between all three drums. Today I got a decent bass, a great snare, and a lousy floor tom. On my 24x15 with a 8x10 tom, I get a great tom sound, a so so bass, and a so so snare.
I was also surprised that it is feasible to play a 16x16" drum standing up. Of course, the ends of the sticks were only a few inches above my knees, but it was do-able--just bad form.
I can't personally see how a 16x16 could be both the snare and the bass. The bottom head will just send so much force to the top head, even with a baffle and lots of muffling and venting. Good luck!
I was also surprised that it is feasible to play a 16x16" drum standing up. Of course, the ends of the sticks were only a few inches above my knees, but it was do-able--just bad form.
I can't personally see how a 16x16 could be both the snare and the bass. The bottom head will just send so much force to the top head, even with a baffle and lots of muffling and venting. Good luck!
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SJB05
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FW
Good attitude! That would be so cool if you make it work.
A snare fan is easy. You just get some snappy snares and cut them in two pieces. From past experience, I'd say don't cut the wires directly in half. I'd make the cut about four inches from one side. Then, if four inches is too much, cut some off of that end. If it's too little, you have the longer piece to work with that you can also trim later. I'm guessing with the shallowness of the drum, you probably don't want a ton of snare wire under the head. Still, you need enough to make a 16" head sound like a snare.
If your floor tom already has an internal muffler on it, you are set. Just take the felt pad off of it, slide on the snare fan where the mylar strap would normally attach the snares to the snare drum. Then, solder or duct tape the butt of the snares to the muffling arm. I've tried both and prefer the duct tape--my solder kept breaking apart, and the tape lets me experiment more with the snare position on the muffler arm.
There is a certain especially weird buzz you can get from the snares if the raw ends of the snare wires face up toward the head instead of down into the shell. Watch out for that! Imagine the sound of tiny fingernails or claws tapping a chalkboard. If you get that sound but don't want to trim the wires, you can put a piece of scotch tape on the underside of the head where the ends of the snares touch the head. You'll deaden the snare response slightly, though.
If you figure out a good baffle, let us know, because I'll steal the idea in a second. Good luck!
FW
A snare fan is easy. You just get some snappy snares and cut them in two pieces. From past experience, I'd say don't cut the wires directly in half. I'd make the cut about four inches from one side. Then, if four inches is too much, cut some off of that end. If it's too little, you have the longer piece to work with that you can also trim later. I'm guessing with the shallowness of the drum, you probably don't want a ton of snare wire under the head. Still, you need enough to make a 16" head sound like a snare.
If your floor tom already has an internal muffler on it, you are set. Just take the felt pad off of it, slide on the snare fan where the mylar strap would normally attach the snares to the snare drum. Then, solder or duct tape the butt of the snares to the muffling arm. I've tried both and prefer the duct tape--my solder kept breaking apart, and the tape lets me experiment more with the snare position on the muffler arm.
There is a certain especially weird buzz you can get from the snares if the raw ends of the snare wires face up toward the head instead of down into the shell. Watch out for that! Imagine the sound of tiny fingernails or claws tapping a chalkboard. If you get that sound but don't want to trim the wires, you can put a piece of scotch tape on the underside of the head where the ends of the snares touch the head. You'll deaden the snare response slightly, though.
If you figure out a good baffle, let us know, because I'll steal the idea in a second. Good luck!
FW
16 x 16 cocktail
Well, sounds like you are going for it all!
I have to ask why the top head must be lower in pitch than the bottom head? It will be interestng to see how it works. There are several old 24 x 16 cocktails out there. I suspect that the longer drum gives a little more oomph to the overal drum sound just like a 14" drum. I have used a 16 x 16 as a BD/FT combo before and had a similar problem as Willy. It worked out ok for me but since the kit was the 16x16, a djembe instead of a snare and a tamborim for a moutned tom. I was playing some kind of middle eastern-modern-jazz fusion stuff so it worked for it to sound funky. but if it was a rock gig??
Kepp us posted. Don't forget that the heads can make ALL the difference. My suspicion is that you will want a very thick head on the bottom. It wasn't clear if you will be using the top head without the snare. That will make a huge difference as well.
John
I have to ask why the top head must be lower in pitch than the bottom head? It will be interestng to see how it works. There are several old 24 x 16 cocktails out there. I suspect that the longer drum gives a little more oomph to the overal drum sound just like a 14" drum. I have used a 16 x 16 as a BD/FT combo before and had a similar problem as Willy. It worked out ok for me but since the kit was the 16x16, a djembe instead of a snare and a tamborim for a moutned tom. I was playing some kind of middle eastern-modern-jazz fusion stuff so it worked for it to sound funky. but if it was a rock gig??
Kepp us posted. Don't forget that the heads can make ALL the difference. My suspicion is that you will want a very thick head on the bottom. It wasn't clear if you will be using the top head without the snare. That will make a huge difference as well.
John
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SJB05
The reason the top has to be lower is one of the rhythm (i can never spell that right) patterns i could use a lot. I'm into drum and bass, and hitting bottom-top-bottom-top in quick succession will gimme the chuga-chuga sound im looking for. I actually want that cardboard sound! But i'm using a conventional, piccolo, and popcorn snare, and want to use the floor tom for a snare a bit lower than the conventional snare. I'm thinking the low tuning would encourage vibration though. I dont know. Do all baffles (wood,foam, etc.)affect the bass drum sound? Yes, i am planning on using it as a floor tom too. . Any ideas for temp mounting on the snare wires? I want to adjust before i go drilling holes. By the way, have you ever seen this article from the older cocktailangst site=
The secret to getting a reasonable "Bass Drum" sound from a 16" x 16" Tom Tom on the bottom, while getting a Tom Tom sound on the top:
Using a coated Remo Ambassador Coated head on the top and a Remo Ambassador Clear on, place a 3" felt strip offset from the center of bottom head by about 2" - 3". Also, place a Remo Bass Drum impact pad at dead center of the bottom head.
Tune the bottom "Bass Drum" head until the wrinkles are just taken out (semi-loose), and stretch the felt strip snug (but not tight) against the bottom head. Position the "Upbeat" Pedal so that the beater hits the center of the impact pad. Tighten all the tension rods about 1/4 turn and check the head for equal tension at all the lugs. The bottom head, when struck - will have more "thud" than "boom" (right now).
Make sure that the top head muffler is fully off, then tune the top head about a 3rd HIGHER than the bottom head, and check the head for equal tension at all the lugs. Hit the top head reasonably hard while listening for the bottom heads sympathetic overtones. What we want to achieve is the inverse of tuning for a Tom Tom... that is, to "unbalance" the natural resonance of the two heads in the 16" air-column between the heads; and it's purely subjective.
Tune the bottom head UP, until you hear a clear Bass Drum "boom". The impact pad helps to give the bottom head some "punch" when struck. The 3" felt strip helps to minimize the effect of the top head causing the bottom head to resonate.
Now tune the top head until you hear that typical "boing" sound for a Tom Tom, while maintaining the "boom" of the bottom head... one 1/4 turn of the tension screws on the top head can make all the difference in de-tuning the whole drum (but thats what we want!).
Now adjust the top head muffler to remove any undesired wringing, and your done!
Overall, you'll have the "Bass Drum/Tom Tom" higher in pitch than you may be use to, for a "regular" drum set (don't expect this setup to sound like John Bonham's 28" Bass Drum!).
See if that works. I havent tried it, but he sounds confident it works. Its from an article about a rogers astoria set. Anyways, any info is appreciated.
The secret to getting a reasonable "Bass Drum" sound from a 16" x 16" Tom Tom on the bottom, while getting a Tom Tom sound on the top:
Using a coated Remo Ambassador Coated head on the top and a Remo Ambassador Clear on, place a 3" felt strip offset from the center of bottom head by about 2" - 3". Also, place a Remo Bass Drum impact pad at dead center of the bottom head.
Tune the bottom "Bass Drum" head until the wrinkles are just taken out (semi-loose), and stretch the felt strip snug (but not tight) against the bottom head. Position the "Upbeat" Pedal so that the beater hits the center of the impact pad. Tighten all the tension rods about 1/4 turn and check the head for equal tension at all the lugs. The bottom head, when struck - will have more "thud" than "boom" (right now).
Make sure that the top head muffler is fully off, then tune the top head about a 3rd HIGHER than the bottom head, and check the head for equal tension at all the lugs. Hit the top head reasonably hard while listening for the bottom heads sympathetic overtones. What we want to achieve is the inverse of tuning for a Tom Tom... that is, to "unbalance" the natural resonance of the two heads in the 16" air-column between the heads; and it's purely subjective.
Tune the bottom head UP, until you hear a clear Bass Drum "boom". The impact pad helps to give the bottom head some "punch" when struck. The 3" felt strip helps to minimize the effect of the top head causing the bottom head to resonate.
Now tune the top head until you hear that typical "boing" sound for a Tom Tom, while maintaining the "boom" of the bottom head... one 1/4 turn of the tension screws on the top head can make all the difference in de-tuning the whole drum (but thats what we want!).
Now adjust the top head muffler to remove any undesired wringing, and your done!
Overall, you'll have the "Bass Drum/Tom Tom" higher in pitch than you may be use to, for a "regular" drum set (don't expect this setup to sound like John Bonham's 28" Bass Drum!).
See if that works. I havent tried it, but he sounds confident it works. Its from an article about a rogers astoria set. Anyways, any info is appreciated.
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fw
Sounds like an awesome set!
Yeah...I think Kyle's Gibraltar snare set up is the only one anyone on the list figured out for a quick release snare.
The only other idea I have is to set a snare fan on top of the head like Dinkus, and then get a small piece of foam, and then wedge it under the snare wires when you want the floor tom sound. When I was stuck with the cardboard sound, I found the top head needed a little muffling to sound the right kind of dead, so I don't think a little styrofoam or something would hurt the tone of the head, especially if you want a dead, electronic kind of sound.
I did read that article on the Rogers Astoria set, and it was good to see it again. If I have time today, i'll try it. I've got a show at a book store. Originally I was going to go cocktail, but now we only have guitar and pedal steel showing up, and I might need more oomph in the low end department than the cocktail set gets. Plus, we have more room now, since the other three won't be there. Part of me wants to use my 26x12" bass drum. (Pictures of that ridiculous thing are at matthewcarlson.net). At the same time, the drums all have to fit in the cab of my truck since the bed is full of snow, so maybe I can get the floor tom working right and make a fake Astoria. I've got a felt strip just waiting for some use.
By the way, with refinishing drums, have any of you figured out a good way to cut the excess plastic off the rim of the shell after you've wrapped it? I botched my 10" tom a bit and I'm worried about the main drum.
Yeah...I think Kyle's Gibraltar snare set up is the only one anyone on the list figured out for a quick release snare.
The only other idea I have is to set a snare fan on top of the head like Dinkus, and then get a small piece of foam, and then wedge it under the snare wires when you want the floor tom sound. When I was stuck with the cardboard sound, I found the top head needed a little muffling to sound the right kind of dead, so I don't think a little styrofoam or something would hurt the tone of the head, especially if you want a dead, electronic kind of sound.
I did read that article on the Rogers Astoria set, and it was good to see it again. If I have time today, i'll try it. I've got a show at a book store. Originally I was going to go cocktail, but now we only have guitar and pedal steel showing up, and I might need more oomph in the low end department than the cocktail set gets. Plus, we have more room now, since the other three won't be there. Part of me wants to use my 26x12" bass drum. (Pictures of that ridiculous thing are at matthewcarlson.net). At the same time, the drums all have to fit in the cab of my truck since the bed is full of snow, so maybe I can get the floor tom working right and make a fake Astoria. I've got a felt strip just waiting for some use.
By the way, with refinishing drums, have any of you figured out a good way to cut the excess plastic off the rim of the shell after you've wrapped it? I botched my 10" tom a bit and I'm worried about the main drum.
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kylebronsdon
I just wanted to mention again that I have yet to get the Gibraltar throw-off to work smoothly: the internal tension of the thing makes it pull/push against the shell where it's mounted, so I have to turn AND push it in. Not the most efficient in practice!
However, for an enterprising diy-er, here's some ideas I had (I haven't had the patience to get very far with them):
However, for an enterprising diy-er, here's some ideas I had (I haven't had the patience to get very far with them):
Just a heads up, I've designed a throw off not too unlike what Kyle suggests. I had mentioned it in a previous post. It's being built now (actually was supposed to be done but my welder went pipelining.) I put a lot a thought into it and hopefully next week I'll be able to show picks of my new cocktail drum and strainer. Of course it will be set up with two throw offs. I'll never go back to a single. I'll keep you up to speed when she's done.
Dinkus
Dinkus
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SJB05
Thats a sweet idea for a throw off right there. One idea i had that would work perfectly with is snare cord. Im about to try that (and a few other things) on the floor tom. Any ideas for materials? I got my 5000 reversed today and beat the bejesus out of it. Put a credit card on the bottom of the clear stock tama head and put the beater to it. Beautiful stuff. After muffling the top, eveything sounded very nice. And i realized i got some self muting heads so i can jack the tone control from the snare for the top of the tom. Got the materials on the way. Ill be back around.
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fw
After reading the Astoria tuning method again, I decided to play a book store gig with a 16" floor tom/bass conversion.
One thing I found is that the drum sounds way better at home than anywhere else. The bass sounded great and the floor tom head not bad in my cement basement or in my living room with hardwood floors. When I got to the gig, though, the carpet and maybe the fact I was playing in a corner made everything sound bad. It took some effort to get a nice bass drum sound, and just when I found a perfect sound, the floor tom sound would become unusable. So I had to constantly compromise the bass tone to get an even marginably usable floor tom sound.
Still, I found a few things that might be useful to you from the experiment.
1)Test the drum in every kind of room you can before you gig it, and get used to tuning it quickly.
2)The felt strip idea works REALLY WELL for a nice bass drum tone.
3)The fact that the floor tom sound sucks might not be so awful, since you want it to be a dead sounding snare.
So, the baffle and strainer are probably the only issues. Good luck!
Will
One thing I found is that the drum sounds way better at home than anywhere else. The bass sounded great and the floor tom head not bad in my cement basement or in my living room with hardwood floors. When I got to the gig, though, the carpet and maybe the fact I was playing in a corner made everything sound bad. It took some effort to get a nice bass drum sound, and just when I found a perfect sound, the floor tom sound would become unusable. So I had to constantly compromise the bass tone to get an even marginably usable floor tom sound.
Still, I found a few things that might be useful to you from the experiment.
1)Test the drum in every kind of room you can before you gig it, and get used to tuning it quickly.
2)The felt strip idea works REALLY WELL for a nice bass drum tone.
3)The fact that the floor tom sound sucks might not be so awful, since you want it to be a dead sounding snare.
So, the baffle and strainer are probably the only issues. Good luck!
Will